• Ongoing coronavirus / COVID-19 discussion: how is the pandemic affecting your community, workplace, and wellness? 🦠

    Working from home? So are we. Come join us! Cyburbia is a friendly big tent, where we share our experiences and thoughts about urban planning practice, planning adjacent topics, and whatever else comes to mind. No ads, no spam, no social distancing.

Shopping for REAL Women

Status
Not open for further replies.
Messages
7,649
Points
29
Walmart aside, I would like to know why our entire culture has decreed that men are entitled to 'Big and Tall' shops but women have to settle for short and fat shops (euphimistically called 'petite' and 'women's'). I am 5 ft 8 in. tall, big boned, and busty. When I was a skinny, scrawny teen, I had a heckuva time trying to find clothes that fit. I actually have an easier time, in some ways, finding clothes that fit when I am fatter.

This may be 'bad news' in that, as I get well and have been off of steroids here recently, I am slimming down again. I will never again be reed thin (nor do I want to be -- I was miserable and had terrible hypoglycemia when I was so skinny) but I sure as heck do not want to set a goal of keeping on some extra weight just so it easier to shop in the 'women's' department.

Can we get a 'big and tall' shop for REAL WOMEN?

(as an aside, Mom is German, so we are all sort of tha 'Brunhilda' build. When I lived in Germany, lo and behold, the German stores sell women's shoes in larger sizes that are actually ATTRACTIVE. Why on earth do American shoe makers think that if you have big feet, you have no taste and no self esteem and don't mind being relegated to the 'ugly shops'?)

Mod Note - thread split and moved - Tranplanner
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
Michele Zone said:
(as an aside, Mom is German, so we are all sort of tha 'Brunhilda' build. When I lived in Germany, lo and behold, the German stores sell women's shoes in larger sizes that are actually ATTRACTIVE. Why on earth do American shoe makers think that if you have big feet, you have no taste and no self esteem and don't mind being relegated to the 'ugly shops'?)
Let me get this straight... you want a German clothing store for the Brunhilda look? Like this? :-0
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
lol. Oh, thank god I have good self-esteem and you have already set yourself as an a 'friendly adversary'. lol.

"Brunhilda" is an affectionate way my sister describes my build. She is the 'runt' of the family, at 5 ft 7 in and smaller boned. When I took care of her after her mastectomy, and she was cut front and back and couldn't get up off the couch or out of bed for several days without assistance, I outweigh her sufficiently that I simply hoisted her up -- even though I am not much taller than her, I am heavier boned and more muscular.

You and Donk are seriously tempting me to post a carefully edited nude self-portrait as my avatar. Most men drool over me. However, I learned in a major way that beauty is most definitely in the eye of the beholder when I hit a certain weight and white men suddenly found me 'invisible' and men of color began making fools of themselves for me.

I have slimmed down enough, while remaining busty enough, that men of all ages and colors are presently acting like idiots around me, but why should I give you and Donk more Ammo if you have some big problem with a woman who is not anorexically thin? I am a Babe. My point was that larger women are not automatically ugly -- that is an American 'myth' and it is an American attitude. You have sort of proven my point: you are an American acting like I have to be a Dog just cuz I am not petite and skinny.

Let me point out that you have to be at least 5 ft. 7 in. tall to be a professional magazine model. Many of them are quite tall. They are Freaks: 5 ft. 11. in. and wear size 7 or whatever. I was 5 ft. 9 in. and wore sizes 5 and 7 when I was 17 years old. I can tell you from first hand experience that if you are that tall and that skinny, you have NO boobs and NO hips. You might as well date a malnourished little boy if that appeals to you. lol.

"They're called boobs, Ed"
 

donk

Cyburbian
Messages
6,970
Points
30
OT
but why should I give you and Donk more Ammo if you have some big problem with a woman who is not anorexically thin
Its not that i have a problem/fear/dislike of larger ladies (i've dated a few), there are many that are very attractive. Given a choice (which i am getting less and less of) and all other things being equal I'd take the skinny girl. But that is just me.

Please post a tasteful nude shot, you can never see enough.
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
donk said:
OT

Its not that i have a problem/fear/dislike of larger ladies (i've dated a few), there are many that are very attractive. Given a choice (which i am getting less and less of) and all other things being equal I'd take the skinny girl. But that is just me.

Please post a tasteful nude shot, you can never see enough.

It is the best I can do on short notice. I think it is less obscene than Mike D.'s Avatar. If I don't get in major trouble with the moderators, I might keeping it as my avatar. It really is me. It really is nude. I know: you were hoping for something where you could recognize me on the street, etc. Fat chance.

I have NICELY refrained from trying to explain your problem to you. You have given me many openings. But I didn't think you would take it as intended to be helpful and perhaps a public forum is not the place for it anyway. :)
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
RichmondJake said:
MZ - nice boobs.
You must need new glasses. Remember: Donk already scientifically determined -- based on the fact that I am 38 years old and married -- that I couldn't possibly be attractive. ;)
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,915
Points
36
Well well well - another thread diverges from its original intent. I've split it off where I thought appropriate, and have moved the OT portion to the FAC, where it belongs.
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
Tranplanner said:
Well well well - another thread diverges from its original intent. I've split it off where I thought appropriate, and have moved the OT portion to the FAC, where it belongs.
Thank you. Since I do not seem to be in really big trouble, I am going to catch some zzzzs. lol.
 

donk

Cyburbian
Messages
6,970
Points
30
I have NICELY refrained from trying to explain your problem to you.
I think I'll avoid saying anything else about what i find attractive. it seems to be getting me into trouble. Just because I prefer something does not mean that i don't find other things that are not my preference unattractive.

On the age item, it was the way and what you wrote that made me think you where a 20-25 year old college grad, not a more mature college grad.

As for explaining what my problem is please do. I'll probably get a chuckle out of it and so will others, especailly the few that I have met here.

Sorry if I offended/attacted you, I have never meant to.

If I did mean to be nasty it would be very clear.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
I'm missing something 8-!

Where are the boobs?

For the record....I'll take the skinny athletic type chicks too.
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,915
Points
36
donk said:

As for explaining what my problem is please do. I'll probably get a chuckle out of it and so will others, especailly the few that I have met here.
Yeah - I've actually met Donk and I couldn't figure out what his problem is ;)

p.s. He actually really is a nice guy. Honest. No, he didn't bribe me with beer to say that either.
 

donk

Cyburbian
Messages
6,970
Points
30
Tranplanner posted
No, he didn't bribe me with beer to say that either.
damn i owe you another 6 pack.icon12.gif

I was on my "ok" behaviour when we met, if we'd stayed out much longer all bets would have been off though.
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
Places I've found with tall clothes:

Nordstroms, JCPenny, Amercian Eagle, Express, Ann Taylor Loft, Lerner/New York, Macy's, Old Navy, Polo, and a dozen others. The long pants at Lerner are just right for someone 5'11". :)
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
Donk: I did not think you meant to be nasty. You are kind of 'cute', in an awkward sort of way. I am sure you are a perfectly 'nice' guy (that might actually be part of your problem -- you may not yet have figured out how to be, as one suave individual put it to me, "A perfect gentleman first and a dirty old man second"). I am well aware that I came across as 'youthful' in my original posts. In a sense, I am 'young' -- at least career-wise -- in that I am 'green'.

I don't know you well enough to know what your whole problem is, but let me put it this way: your remark that : 'darn, I was beginning to think 'cute, naive, go-getter' suggests that you were charmed by my wit and looking forward to being wowed further by a warm and vivacious woman. Initially, you were perfectly happy to label me 'attractive' in some fashion, without actually knowing my age or marital status or anything about what I looked like. You find out I am not under 25 and single, and all of a sudden I am apparently not worthy of your fantasies. Not that I care what you fantasize about. But your remark implied such things.

Given that you live in Canada and I live in California, it really should make no difference to you what my age and marital status are. It is still good for a 'feel good' vibe if you think I am witty, warm, etc, in the way I write. Men who see a lot of action focus exclusively on a woman's 'good points', whatever they happen to think those are. Single men that I have known who aren't big on sleeping alone and not yet ready to settle down and get married, will let a woman know in no uncertain terms how fabulous she is and that she is welcome to call anytime. They seem to ignore tiny, inconsequential details like her age, weight, marital status, etc if they aren't actually scoping for a wife. Some have gone so far as to suggest that if my husband is not taking care of business, I could just let them know when and where to meet.

I have known men who were devoutly religious and very committed to their wives, who had absolutely no intention of having an affair, who made it abundantly clear that we could have had a very good time together if we had met under different circumstances.

White American men (I haven't known many Canadian men) seem to feel that 'saying' it or admitting to feeling or thinking it is as bad (or worse) than actually being unfaithful. They freak out. Men of other cultures feel that there is absolutely nothing wrong with making it abundantly clear that they find a woman charming and her company has been a genuine pleasure, they feel privileged to have known her, etc, without feeling like they have to be embarrassed by that or feel like they have betrayed their wives, etc. They publicly admire a woman's charms, whatever form they come in, without feeling they must bed her.

I tend to have a big problem with white, middle-class American men who take one look at me and conclude that I am of their culture. Hardly. I am an odd mixture of very old-fashioned values and the result of a multicultural homelife when I was growing up. I inherited my father's pale Irish complexion and I grew up correcting my mom's English. I speak English very eloquently and I dress rather conservatively. I look extremely 'white middle class American'.

Then I don't act anything like they expected me too -- I am far more warm and witty than that, with something of a raunchy sense of humor. After 18 years of marriage, I feel perfectly entitled to admit to having a sexuality without fearing that I might be labeled a tramp. Hispanic men understand that perfectly well and find me adorable. White men conclude I am a tramp, treat me as such and then get really confused when I seem to 'run hot one minute and cold the next'. I am no tramp and I do not tolerate being treated as such. But that does not mean I am ready to have my vagina removed and be put out to pasture either.

Tranplanner made it abundantly clear that he is married and was not coming on to me, he just wanted to welcome me warmly, without implying that I must be a dog. Because of that, when he said 'I can't drool without a picture', I did not feel baited nor any need to reply to that. He was being loyal to his wife and a gentleman. It was a polite way to turn aside a potentially awkward situation. I am sure his diplomatic skills are why he is a moderator.

The statements "No, I don't want to get intimate with you" and "God, you are a dog" are not actually synonymous. ;) (Please realize that I am exagerating so as to make my point as clear as possible. There is no real need to get defensive.)

I really don't care if you think I am dog. I just have no intention of 'agreeing' with any such implication. I used to think I was beautiful. I don't anymore. I have asked a number of men what it is about me that gets such a reaction from men. They don't know. I jokingly chalk it up to 'hormones' these days. I have some hypotheses but I think I have already said PLENTY more than most folks would.

Peace. And thanks. This has been fun. I would have never had the guts if you and Michael hadn't gotten my goat.
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
MZ.... as a 38 year old...fresh from my 20 year high school reunion...it was interesting to see how so many of the woman looked fabulous...while the men were beer bellied and chrome domed.....
 

giff57

Corn Burning Fool
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
5,443
Points
34
ts corbitt said:
MZ.... while the men were beer bellied and chrome domed.....
Hey, I resemble that remark....... ;-)
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
[BS] Most men can carry off a few extra pounds better than women. It makes us more 'cuddly.' In the same way, gray hairs give us a distibguished, mature look that women find irresistable. Women just look old. [/BS]
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
ts corbitt said:
MZ.... as a 38 year old...fresh from my 20 year high school reunion...it was interesting to see how so many of the woman looked fabulous...while the men were beer bellied and chrome domed.....
Madonna was born the same year as my older sister. No one is calling her a dog.

I have been razzing my sister about her age since she turned 22 (when I was 15). Her husband is 5 years younger than her and her only child is lots younger than either of mine. Because she delayed having kids, the first time her now-husband slept with her, he commented that she had 'teenager ****'.

My sister would never make it as a model -- she doesn't have the face -- and she dresses so conservatively that she used to get mistaken as being my mother when she was in her twenties. But she has a bod that won't quit.

My oldest son, when he was little, once walked in on my sister when she was fresh from the shower and bent over wrapping up her wet hair in a towel, so he didn't see her face. He said "hi mom". When he figured out it was his aunt, he said "Oh, you look just like mom, only smaller." lol.

I forgive this child for all his gauche remarks about how fat I am. When he was 7 years old, he stood in the door of my bedroom and asked "Mom, are you still fat?" I didn't know what on earth to think of that (I was raised by a mom who is really weird about weight) and I asked "Um, why do you ask?" He came bounding into the room and leapt onto the bed to snuggle and said "Because you make such a great pillow when you are fat."

I used to be incredibly hung up about my weight, etc. I was anorexically thin as a child and figured I always would be. Mom has always been thin and look a great deal like her. Years of taking steroids due to health problems changed that fact. When I was so sick, my priority was getting well. I was in no position to care about my weight or figure or whatever. Twice in my life, I have been sick enough to be generally ignored by men when in public. The first time, it was both an identity crisis and a relief. The second time, it was not worthy of noticing because I was so sick I genuinely did not wish to survive it. I tried to talk the Grim Reaper into taking me away with him. But he listens less well than my kids. So I am still here.

I found my sense of humor in the valley of the shadow of death. And I survived the doctors' geniunely life-threatening opinions that there was nothing physically wrong with me, but a good psychiatrist might be really useful. After spending the first 6 months of 2001 being called 'crazy' (directly or indirectly) I had the enormous pleasure of spending the last 6 months of that year walking into the ER and announcing "I am a newly diagnosed 36 year old CF patient" (36 is the average life expectancy for traditional CF and no one has heard of this milder form) and watching the doctors eye's cross and the gears churn while they clearly thought "Why are you confusing me like this when you are not supposed to exist?"

I am not nearly as thin-skinned as I used to be.
 

Richmond Jake

You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
Messages
18,313
Points
44
Michael Stumpf said:
[BS] Most men can carry off a few extra pounds better than women. It makes us more 'cuddly.' In the same way, gray hairs give us a distibguished, mature look that women find irresistable. Women just look old. [/BS]
Michael - I can't believe you're going to get away with these observations without some responses from our fellow cyber-babes.
 

SW MI Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
3,194
Points
26
Is anyone else as confused as I am? I didn't see that Donk said anything, but I could be mistaken. My excuse is that I'm pregnant, and kind of out of it lately.

I am so disappointed in you donk - you were such a nice young man in my dream a year ago. ((no, it wasn't that kind of dream))
;)
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
RichmondJake said:
Michael - I can't believe you're going to get away with these observations without some responses from our fellow cyber-babes.
He clearly marked it 'BS'. As an uptight white guy with few social skills, that is probably the closest he comes to using what my brother in law calls the 'R word' (saying "I was wrong" -- apologizing, etc).

Don't worry: ever heard of The Darwin Awards? Sufficiently gauche people seem to get few chances to reproduce. Besides, El Guapo seems to be uncomfortable with too much honesty -- especially my brand of honesty. :-}

So, I am bowing out of busting his chops. If some other cyber-babe -- like Nerudite, who has such a fabulous 'Just one of the guys/I'm a babe' avatar these days -- wants to go for it, I will step aside.
 

ecofem

Cyburbian
Messages
206
Points
9
Am I the only one who is confused?

(not in the general sense... that's granted... but with this thread)
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
Michael Stumpf said:
[BS] Most men can carry off a few extra pounds better than women. It makes us more 'cuddly.' In the same way, gray hairs give us a distibguished, mature look that women find irresistable. Women just look old. [/BS]
LOL.....just another oddity of men...thinking they carry it better...yeah...nothing like the spare tire wrapped around a guys waistline.......

at least women often get the extra pounds up top....I am sure you think a DD cup is cuddley...
 

Zoning Goddess

Cyburbian
Messages
13,852
Points
39
I thought FAC was supposed to be a generally light-hearted forum. Shouldn't we be saving the serious stuff for social/planning/Michael Stumpf's lack of furniture - type issues? It isn't supposed to be personal - that's why most of us use screen names.
 

Wannaplan?

Bounty Hunter
Messages
3,212
Points
29
SW MI Planner said:
Is anyone else as confused as I am?
Oh yeah! I'm way confused, too! I have no idea where this thread started. On the surface, it appears to be another dumb "All About Me!" thread, a la StarrrrDarseeeee. How is it that some folks want to go off and start taking about their boobs and stuff? Must have boiled over from a PM or something, right? I'm not exactly coming here to Cyburbia to talk about my penis, but then again, this is FAC, so anything goes, I guess.
 

SW MI Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
3,194
Points
26
No ecofem, your not the only one confused. I'm lost as hell!

I'm not exactly coming here to Cyburbia to talk about my penis, but then again, this is FAC, so anything goes, I guess.
Hey, I don't mind those posts, so go ahead and post a new thread - just make sure I'm in from the beginning ;)
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
ok... shopping for women....

REI, and I would agree... Talbots

and go to the GAP to get your standard issue Planner Khakis....
 

H

Cyburbian
Messages
2,850
Points
24
I am also very confused, but I do find the thread entertianing with some social relevance, it has given me a nice break from reading thru these development orders :-D
 

Belle

Cyburbian
Messages
142
Points
6
SW MI Planner said:
Is anyone else as confused as I am? I didn't see that Donk said anything, but I could be mistaken. My excuse is that I'm pregnant, and kind of out of it lately.
Off-topic:
OK, I'm the one that's out of it. Did I miss the happy news or maybe it was announced before I came aboard here at Cyburbia?

Let me say (belatedly) CONGRATULATIONS! :)
 

Richmond Jake

You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
Messages
18,313
Points
44
I agree--there is some confusion here. Look at the title of this thread. Is it men "Shopping for REAL Women" or is it women shopping for clothes for themselves?
 

SW MI Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
3,194
Points
26
Off-topic:
OK, I'm the one that's out of it. Did I miss the happy news or maybe it was announced before I came aboard here at Cyburbia? Let me say (belatedly) CONGRATULATIONS!
Awww thanks :) I don't think I really posted an official "I'm knocked up" thread, so don't feel bad!

And....still confused.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31
Michele Zone said:
Besides, El Guapo seems to be uncomfortable with too much honesty -- especially my brand of honesty. :-}
Call it "honesty" or whatever you wish. Yes, I am uncomfortable with strangers that give out too much personal information. Note, that anyone in the world with net access can now know way more than they should about your life -IMHO. With identity theft and other identity net-crimes on the rise I would think people would be more cautious. But I am likely a relic in this area.

With regards to your stereotyping white men, while you are in no way going into Springer-Land, it does give me concern that you need to share so much personal angst you carry with my race and gender. As I said TMI - but hey it is your life. Live it your way :)
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
Zoning Goddess said:
It isn't supposed to be personal - that's why most of us use screen names.
Back when this forum was young, a large number of the posters used their real names, or some abbreviation. Maybe I'll have to join in and change my on-line personna.
 

Queen B

Cyburbian
Messages
3,178
Points
25
Michael Stumpf said:
Back when this forum was young, a large number of the posters used their real names, or some abbreviation. Maybe I'll have to join in and change my on-line personna.
Ya, I think we could have guessed this isn't a name you made up!

Should we start a new thread on what name you should go by????
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,152
Points
51
Michele Zone said:


Let me point out that you have to be at least 5 ft. 7 in. tall to be a professional magazine model. Many of them are quite tall. They are Freaks: 5 ft. 11. in. and wear size 7 or whatever. I was 5 ft. 9 in. and wore sizes 5 and 7 when I was 17 years old. I can tell you from first hand experience that if you are that tall and that skinny, you have NO boobs and NO hips. You might as well date a malnourished little boy if that appeals to you. lol.
OK… let me start off by saying that I have dated MANY women who have been heavier than average. All of them (except one) are still great friends of mine. So I do not discriminate when it comes to the weight thing. FACT IS, women have it soooo much easier then guys do. When guys go some place to meet women, they have to be 6’3” 200lbs of pure muscle, rich as hell, great tan, and look like a cover model before women will EVER approach them. And THEN, they have to be the most charming man in the world to get her number.

It is crazy, because when I was in HS, and even college, I did not have much time to work out and well, I was this skinny dorky kid. (OK… get the (you still are jokes out of your system… thank you) , In college there was this one woman that I have asked out 5 or 6 times during college. When I moved to PA, I had all this extra time, did not know any one so I joined a gym, and started to work out on more than a regular basis. When I went home this spring, and saw this girl, BOOM, she was hitting on me, and at the end of the night, she was the one who was kissing me. And she was not the only one. I seen so many women who would not even give me the time of day, and in that one weekend, so many of them where hitting on me. *It was like a dream come true. There was one that I had asked out a month before I moved, but when she came up and started talking to me, she did not know who I was. I see that I made a major impact on her when I was in college. I still go to the gym every workday right after work. Just to try to maintain my appearance. I feel good about who I am now, and the progress I have made.

I guess what I am saying is that it is true that some men have an expectation of how a woman should look; well women have the same expectation of men. Maybe it is just me though.

ON a side note, I am sure you’re very attractive. I don’t understand why you are so defensive about it.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,152
Points
51
Michele Zone said:
Why on earth do American shoe makers think that if you have big feet, you have no taste and no self esteem and don't mind being relegated to the 'ugly shops'?)

Mod Note - thread split and moved - Tranplanner
If you go to some of the higher end shoe stores, you can get European made shoes such as Ecco's. They tend to fit much better. If it says made in China, Korea, Taiwan, or Hong Kong, I don't think that it will fit any one all that well.

You might want to try Tradehome shoes if you have one near by.
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
Re: Re: Shopping for REAL Women

michaelskis said:
If you go to some of the higher end shoe stores, you can get European made shoes such as Ecco's. They tend to fit much better. If it says made in China, Korea, Taiwan, or Hong Kong, I don't think that it will fit any one all that well.

You might want to try Tradehome shoes if you have one near by.
When I buy sandals, I buy exclusively Italian made leather. They fit better. English shoes tend to be narrower. I avoid those. I pay more but wear them to death. I may print out some of the lists -Nordstroms, etc -- where you can get the longer pants because I will have to shop for pants soon.

I do not think I have any hope of clearing up anyone's confusion or whatever. Perhaps it might make everyone feel better to know that I am suffering from horrible insomnia and have been known to get myself in trouble on other forums at such times.

I was not trying to target Donk. He said 'hey, do feel free to explain.' If you look through my posts, very few of them are short. I know that tends to come across as 'too much' but that's just me: My mouth runneth over. It always has. Then it gets interpreted as hostile, defensive, whatever. TMI is probably the best description. I would have been happy to withhold my opinions of Donk altogether or tell him privately. He seemed to think it might be a source of amusement to air it publicly.

My apologies El Guapo. You are right: I do bear a certain amount of hostility towards white males. Mea Culpa. Some of it has to do with how often I experience misunderstandings with them due to the confusion over the assumption that I am culturally similar to them. For the longest time, I couldn't figure out what the disconnect was.

Due to my presently impaired judgment (from lack of sleep) I am not going to comment further at this time. People will draw conclusions as they see fit.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
Queen B said:
Ya, I think we could have guessed this isn't a name you made up!

Should we start a new thread on what name you should go by????
Consider it done!
 

SW MI Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
3,194
Points
26
FACT IS, women have it soooo much easier then guys do
Yah, horsecrap. I don't agree with that at all.

When guys go some place to meet women, they have to be 6’3” 200lbs of pure muscle, rich as hell, great tan, and look like a cover model before women will EVER approach them. And THEN, they have to be the most charming man in the world to get her number.
The man should get some cahones and approach the girl ;) Then of course, the ones they approach are the 5'4 skinny ass blondes (sorry blondes).

off topic - where did you work out at at northern? My sister was a manager at power station for about a year (in 2000). Now it's called Wright Street Family Fitness or something like that. Now she works for Merck Pharmaceuticals making the big $$$ and thereby making our prescriptions more expensive.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top