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Stopping sprawl by any means necessary

gkmo62u

Cyburbian
Messages
1,046
Points
24
Somebody please move this to a forum/place where it cannot be taken seriously. Its pretty offensive.

They are terrorists, plain and simple.
 

NHPlanner

Forums Administrator & Gallery Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
9,889
Points
38
[Mod Hat on]

Thread moved to the FAC.

[Mod Hat off]

I can't condone any terrorist methods of "stopping sprawl." Sick environmental wackos in the ELF. They've been found responsible (or claimed responsibility) for many an arson over the past few years.
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,550
Points
25
People in groups like this are not really concerned about the environment. If you torch a bunch of houses, the developer is just going to get more wood and more trees are going to be cut down. I have also heard instances of them torching SUVs at car dealerships. They seem like a bunch of a-holes and the term terrorist used by gkmo62u is not to far off base.

Their membership is probably comprised of a bunch of college students who could care less about the environment, they just want to start fires. Kind of like the people who show up at these world trade orginization meetings for the sole purpose of rioting.
 

Seabishop

Cyburbian
Messages
3,838
Points
25
There's little to separate these people from run of the mill terrorists. These are legal, approved developments that people invested lots of money in, whether they like it or not. Using their logic I could burn down any new homes outside of the city limits or maybe over 200' from a transit stop. These people seem like the ultimate spoiled, self righteous college kids who are probably just doing this to get laid despite their stated intentions. I hope the media and the public do not romanticize them.
 

biscuit

Cyburbian
Messages
3,904
Points
25
I don't know if I would use the word terrorist to describe people commiting property crimes. The term "moronic-zealots" seems about right. I imagine that these are some misguided folks who have spent all their free time reading and re-reading Edward Abbey's "The Monkey Wrench Gang"
 

Suburb Repairman

moderator in moderation
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
7,342
Points
31
ELF shooting themselves in the foot

ELF... what can I say

They ARE terrorists. I may hate aspects of SUVs and tract housing, but this is no way to treat people's investments. On top of that- arson?!?! Has it occured to them the pollutants and VOCs released by torching houses and SUVs harm the one thing they are trying to protect?! If their beliefs have merit, then they should be overwhelming us with reputable information.

Of course, the media will give them the exposure they want, dispite the irrational beliefs of ELF.
 

chazbet

Member
Messages
9
Points
0
Moderator, this thread is serious

I'm sorry some take offense at this question (perhaps the intended tone of sarcasm rather than sympathy wasn't adequately communicated), but it was meant in all seriousness.

More than half the threads on this forum are about the politics, the esthetics, or lack thereof, of modern suburbia. Some people perceive the evils of suburban sprawl as meriting this extreme reaction. Clearly there's a continuum of attitudes about suburban development from pave the earth developers to preservationists.

Among planners who confront these issues professionally, what do you say to the more frustrated of the public on the side of better managed growth? Without agreeing with their tactics, some people might be sympathetic to the ELF goals. If you live in a rapidly expanding metro and see familiar landmarks plowed, how do you deal with the frustration? (Yes, I know arson is not the answer).
 
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El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
Re: Moderator, this thread is serious

chazbet said:
If you live in a rapidly expanding metro and see familiar landmarks plowed, how do you deal with the frustration? (Yes, I know arson is not the answer).
Step 1:

Get over the immediate sense of overwhelming frustration, which is debilitating and counterproductive. What's lost is lost. Channel the remaining frustration into Step 2.

Step 2:

Get involved. Show up and speak at public hearings. Try to interest your neighbors. Vote. Run for office. Do something CONSTRUCTIVE to effect change. And above all remember that you live in a republic. This means that you just might win, but, sometimes, despite your best efforts and best arguments, you just might lose. If this happens, proceed to Step 3.

Step 3:

Repeat Step 1.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
Why can't these guys start burning some stuff around my firehouse? We haven't had any decent fires in months....
 

donk

Cyburbian
Messages
6,970
Points
30
You could move up here for the summer, we are already in forest fire season.
 

martini

Cyburbian
Messages
679
Points
19
while I appluade the emotion...

The tactics are certainly circuspect. Like many have pointed out here already, they're flamin' idiots who don't really realized that by destroying one item, they feul the need for these items to be replaced, ie: resource depletion. A MUCH better eay to accomplish change, though frustratingly slow as it may be, is to work the system. If we all do it, one little bit at a time, great things will be accomplished in the end.

Did I sound overly optomistic there or what?
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,550
Points
25
Re: Moderator, this thread is serious

chazbet said:
Some people perceive the evils of suburban sprawl as meriting this extreme reaction.

Among planners who confront these issues professionally, what do you say to the more frustrated of the public on the side of better managed growth? Without agreeing with their tactics, some people might be sympathetic to the ELF goals. If you live in a rapidly expanding metro and see familiar landmarks plowed, how do you deal with the frustration? (Yes, I know arson is not the answer).
First off, I would disagree with anyone who claimed that suburban sprawl is evil or that there are "evils" associated with it. There is nothing evil about people wanting to live in a manner that fits their definition of ideal. While a lot of sprawl is unnecessary and is done without much throught or creativity, evil is not the appropriate label. For some people, the "evils" of urban living (robberies, murder, congestion, crappy schools, poor city services, unresponsive police, etc) are what lead them to the 'burbs. What is wrong with that? Maybe the ELF should work to make city living more attractive instead of torching new construction in the burbs.

As for frustrated citizens, I would agree with El Feo. The right thing to do is to get involved. Heck, if you don't like a development, stand out in front of it picketing when they are showing new home models. Write letters to your elected officials and to the local newspaper. If the ELF doesn't like SUVs, stand out in front of the dealership and picket. Hand out literature about the impact of SUVs. Most people (myslef included) will probably ignore you, but at least you are not breaking the law and endangering people's lives.
 

Runner

Cyburbian
Messages
566
Points
17
Mike D. said:
Why can't these guys start burning some stuff around my firehouse? We haven't had any decent fires in months....
Don't go there, I suspect that's the way many soon to be former firefighters get their start down the arsonists trail...
 

Runner

Cyburbian
Messages
566
Points
17
gkmo62u said:
Somebody please move this to a forum/place where it cannot be taken seriously. Its pretty offensive.
I guess I don't understand. How can terrorism and offensive topics not be taken seriously?

On the topic of ELF isn't it interesting how times change. Before 9-11 ELF was considered by the FBI to be one of, or the, most dangerous terrorist organization(s) in the US. Now they have been downgraded to common criminals (the latest reports quote the FBI as saying that their acts are criminal not terrorist in nature).

However, I guess I can agree with this new classification, as I do not see the intentions of ELF as to incite terror in the general population nor to maximize the body count. However, tragically their methods will end up with the unintentional killing of people who are in the wrong place at the wrong time or of firefighters and other emergency responders who respond.
 

Wulf9

Member
Messages
923
Points
22
Please call them criminals and not "terrorists." The term terrorist is being used whenever someone wants punishment beyond the normal course of law.

For example, a bill introduced in New York has the following definition of "terrorist"

(J) "...ECOLOGICAL TERRORIST ORGANIZATION" MEANS ANY ASSOCIATION, ORGANIZATION, ENTITY, COALITION, OR COMBINATION OF TWO OR MORE PERSONS WITH THE PRIMARY OR INCIDENTAL PURPOSE OF SUPPORTING ANY POLITICALLY MOTIVATED ACTIVITY ... THAT IS INTENDED TO OBSTRUCT, IMPEDE OR DETER ANY PERSON FROM PARTICIPATING IN ... THE LAWFUL ACTIVITY OF MINING, FORESTING, HARVESTING, GATHERING OR PROCESSING NATURAL RESOURCES.

This is from model ordinii being circulated by conservative groups. Some of them require that such "terrorists" be listed and that their names be posted on the internet as terrorists.

Pretty scary, eh? You Sierra Club members all qualify.
 

Runner

Cyburbian
Messages
566
Points
17
Wulf9 said:
For example, a bill introduced in New York has the following definition of "terrorist"
I would have to read the entire bill but if it's consistent with these portions I'd have to classify the bill and the author as "idiotic".

Fortunately of the thousands of idiotic bills that get filed each year most never see the light of day. So there isn't much use in getting too worked up over them.
 

Wulf9

Member
Messages
923
Points
22
Here's the bill. There was a similar bill introduced in Texas. I don't have a lot of info, but it is a model ordinanance prepared by a conservative think tank organization.

http://www.assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=S.2996

Even though not aimed at legitimate enviro organizations, the definition is broad enough to include the Sierra Club.

My point is that the term "terrorist" is being used to allow extra-legal punishment. I would rather see standard criminal law used. It has all the powers needed and also retains Constitutional protections.
 

biscuit

Cyburbian
Messages
3,904
Points
25
That's scary

I've recently read that there is also a move at the federal level to include pro-active and extreme environmental protest in the definition of terrorist. While I agree that people, such as ELF members, who destroy personal property are criminals that should be prosecuted and pay restoration to the those they've harmed, I cannot justify calling all pro-active environmental protest "terrorism."

A man in my hometown once spent a couple of weeks in a tree blocking a timber company from logging old growth trees in the Sumter National Forest. He was arrested once he came down and I think spent a couple days in jail and paid a fine, but under these new laws he would have be branded a terrorist threat to society. That is just a stretch in logic that I'm not prepared to take.

I really hope that states don't buckle under corporate pressure and pass these measures...I'm still too young to become a full time cynic.
 

Zoning Goddess

Cyburbian
Messages
13,853
Points
39
We have a couple of whackos in our county who I could see getting involved in an organization like that: obsessed with fighting zoning cases, even those nowhere near them, get too emotional, etc. But I guess these people exist most places.

The bunny-huggers who actually accomplish something are the ones who develop working relationships with county staff, other agencies, and the local politicians.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
I agree that the ones who develop relationships and work within the system are ultimately the ones who accomplish something. That is why I have been a member of The Nature Conservancy for a long time. Still, sometimes it takes a tree-sitter to buy time for the process to work. I do not have a problem with those people, who use a non-violent means to slow the destruction. The ELF people are another matter. They accomplish nothing, but turn people from supporting environmental causes.
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,550
Points
25
Michael Stumpf said:
The ELF people are another matter. They accomplish nothing, but turn people from supporting environmental causes.
I assume that the ELF is a spinoff of the ALF. No, not the loveable cat eating alien, but the Animal Liberation Front. These are the people that release minks and other animals in captivity into the wild where they are either ran over, starve to death, or are eaten by other animals. While I don't like the fur industry, I don't see how releasing animals only to have them die anyways does anything to help their cause.
 

Wulf9

Member
Messages
923
Points
22
The model ordinii are aimed at both ELFies and ALFies. I took out the animal terrorists (see the ...) because the thread was talking about enviro activists.
 
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