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Tech jobs moving to India

jresta

Cyburbian
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23
How does the saying go about truth going through three phases?
Remembering the WTO and World Bank protests of 4 years ago and the ridicule the demonstrators received in the press about "not knowing what they're talking about" it's interesting that people are starting to take notice now that it's white collar jobs that are going overseas.

Posted on Tue, Mar. 02, 2004

Coalition fights globalization

Employees train foreign workers, then lose their jobs.

By Jane M. Von Bergen

Inquirer Staff Writer


J. Scott Kirwin's Web site sells a T-shirt that says "My job went to India and all I got was a stupid pink slip."

Kirwin's not sure if his specific job went to India, but he knows about the pink-slip part. After training employees of an Indian company to handle J.P. Morgan Chase & Co.'s software, he was out of work.

Since then, Kirwin, 37, of Wilmington, has found a mission - and so have hundreds of displaced information-technology workers.

They are part of a national grassroots movement that is making alliances with manufacturing groups and organized labor to fight globalization and the loss of jobs to overseas companies and foreign guest workers.

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/8081737.htm
 

BKM

Cyburbian
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6,463
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As you yourself have said before, under the present paradigm, this is inevitable. We (the Americans) have benefited from the globalization for so long, even as it has destroyed most economies (except for a lucky few in East Asia). Now the beast is turning on its masters, or at least, the majority of people in the US (the "masters" will do all right. Although, their future: living in isolation and fear in gated communities, like the Third World elite does, can't be that much fun, can it?). As for the US turning only to high value jobs-Indian and Chinese engineers can do those jobs just as well as a spoiled, pampered American (like me) at 1/4 the cost. Arts? People are tired of American nihilism and violence. Bollywood already produces more movies than Hollywood, and Hollywood is increasingly filming in cheaper places anyways-gotta chase the dollar. Besides, the Europeans already have the niche boutique economy sewed up. If the Koreans and (increasingly) Chinese produce the mass market cars, and the Europeans produce the high end, high value cars, who but the NASCAR crowd will buy a Ford or, ugh, General Motors product?

How do the corporate elite expect the United States to pay for the New Imperialism that Rummy and his ilk are proposing? Will we be able to fund all of these little experiments in enforced "democracy" as our economy collapses and the Chinese refuse to continue buying bonds? Interesting times.
 

The Irish One

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25
Will we be able to fund all of these little experiments in enforced "democracy" as our economy collapses and the Chinese refuse to continue buying bonds? Interesting times.
Somebody said "America spends, Asia lends"
 

jresta

Cyburbian
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1,474
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23
BKM said:
As you yourself have said before, under the present paradigm, this is inevitable.
Did i say that?

yeah, i agree wholeheartedly with you. I was just pointing out, in a round about way, that it's a shame that people don't learn the word "solidarity" before they lose their jobs.

it's also funny how you can take just about whatever comes from the white house and, with a resonable degree of certainty, predict that the opposite is true.
"free trade will provide MORE jobs" was the clinton era mantra . . . and in clinton fashion he wasn't lying. It does provide MORE jobs. For people in other countries.

i think it's all part of some orwellian plot to replace the meaning of "jobs" with the meaning of "profit".
 

BKM

Cyburbian
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I love that one, Irish.

Not that I have anything to talk about in my own personal fiscal shortcomings :p
 

Doitnow

Cyburbian
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496
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16
Contentious Issue

I think one economy's loss is anothers gain.
Dont forget that while the general public( including educated and trained professionals who lose these jobs) loses the companies which are outsourcing their work are increasing their profit margins tremendously( they are also into cost cutting).
So if I see the USA as a unit the overall profit, margins are increasing but their distribution is now limited to the owners/shareholders/benefactors of these huge Multinational Companies (MNC's).
The bigger mass(so called common man) of the american economy may not be benefitting at all. I would prescribe that it would lead to an imbalance in the distribuition of wealth within the american society. I'm sure that while the 'larger mass' feels a loss there are a selected but huge number of americans who are getting richer just due to the outsourcing.
It's not just the 'what the business' is but the 'kind of business model'( or I would say the socio-economic business model) that the american government( including the Economists) are foreseeing.
I must say that countries like India are benefitting as they get more work from abroad.
1. Thanks to the conversion of the US Dollar or the Euro- {One dollar= 50 Indian Rupees-},now at a fraction of what they had to spend in the US or Europe, the large MNC's get a huge workforce( albiet with local accents ;-) ).
The smaller salaries( by global standards) are much higher than what any graduate Indian would get here. ( About 500 USD per month).
I'm not sure whether any graduate American would be willing to work at 6000 USD per annum as a medium level executive.
So While Indians and others are earning more now and spending more( they have more disposable incomes). Theres a flipside to it also.
These thousands of BPO executives are addicted to the new lifestyle which comes along as a package. Credit Cards and debts and related stress related diseases and also the change in the socio-cultural values. LEading to more cases to marital discords, divorces etcetc.
Now theres a lot of money to be spent on the new and flashy Pubs, Discos and the MALLS. ( The WALMARTS are coming soon to India Guys :y)
But more or less India's economy is seento be booming. There are other reasons too but the BPO boom definitely helps the cause.
SO I can easily say that India is going the 'American Way'

2. The kind of working environment provided to these BPO guys here is top class.
They have better salaries, trips abroad, all kinds of silly perks( I think even for dating), free pickups and drops, and many other things. It comes with long hours of working in the nights( as they have to match the Western Working Hour timings in the case of Call centres and medical transcription) and this results in problems.
In America this would lead to huge legal problems and the CLass ACtions( made famous by GRisham).
In countries like India nobody would go to court because someone went to the hospital due to work environment and directly related problems. So the Big American Companies dont have to fear any class actions while the profits are pouring in.;-)
I think for america and other europoean countries India and other countries are not just 'low investment-high return' but also importantly- Environmentally and Legally- LOW RISK


I think that american people can ask their politicians and big business industrialists and company boards of this is thier new economic model and how its going to benefit the mass rather thana select few.( did i hear someone say earlier that the gap between the poor and the rich is widening).

I know I am sounding like a socialist but as a planner many times I have to think like that.But I feel that I am a progressive thinker on these issues. :)
India is still a mixed economy( despite the rapid strides in capitalism).

Like there are groups being formed in the US there are groups which oppose the outsourcing in India too.( Let me clarify that I dont belong to any of them ;-) ).

Infact my job as a planner would be to positively channelise this resurgence.

CAn we see all this as a part of a regurgitation of the Global Economy over a Five HUndred period perspective( looking Back)??

Seeing the Title, I had to join this contentious Issue
 

The Irish One

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CAn we see all this as a part of a regurgitation of the Global Economy over a Five HUndred period perspective( looking Back)??
Looking forward perhaps India is resurging as a world leader of industrial competitiveness like before the Brits colonized your country. It's possible that a lot of jobs go to India because not enough Chinese speak English (call center jobs) Also maybe there are restrictions on US/Euro companies to send more work to China. If Indians are making 500 dollars a month for a high tech job, I can't believe the job will last long for an Indian. Capital flight goes to the lowest bidder as soon as is possible. 8-! So, Indian's with credit card debt, who finances your debt? Northeast Asia?Japan, Taiwan, China? Watch out for those Asian Tigers, they account for 30% of the world GDP, Europe and North America now trade more with Northeast Asia than with each other, They account for nearly half of global inbound foreign direct investment (FDI), and are an increasing source of outbound (FDI) flowing within East Asia and Europe and North America.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
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Great perspective from the heart of the new Indian economy!

My concern is similar to yours. The world is rapidly moving toward a huge glut in productive capacity, while at the same time the elites that control this economy are cutting costs (which means incomes). An Indian earning $6000 USD per years is certainly "middle class" by Indian standards, but can he consume enough goods and services to make up for the $50,000 USD engineer laid off in California? If not, who is going to buy all of these products? Are we approaching 1929 again, or can macroeconomic policy overcome the devastating impacts of "lowest common denominator" globalization? I worry. There do appear to be more losers than winners, even ignoring the social/cultural issues you have raised.

The other question, which as a gluttonous American I am almost ashamed to raise: Can the environment really support 400 million Chinese car owners living in suburban villas ("Orange County Estates") on former rice paddies and farmlands? China is already, I understand, an absolute environmental disaster area. Maybe the destruction of the American middle class is necessary (I shudder to think) for global ecological balancing.
 

gkmo62u

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1,046
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Once again I do not get the hand wringing. Isn't this shifting of resources over time a dynamic and expected part of our economy? Instead of carping about it, history has shown us the American economy and its workers adapt, retrain, and advance in the face or competition.

And BKM I have no idea what the phrase "The world is rapidly moving toward a huge glut in productive capacity" means.

Are we the only ones to benefit from globalization? I think not.
 

Rumpy Tunanator

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4,473
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This country's economy is going to hell in a hand basket :-c

Unless more companies commit (and perhaps display some loyalty) to this country, everything is going to be outsourced to somewhere else.

And what is the deal with American flags being made in Taiwan or even China?
 

BKM

Cyburbian
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6,463
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29
Why the hand-wringing? Because many (if not most) parts of this country have never really recovered from the loss of manufacturing. Now the services that were supposed to take their place are being outsourced.

Not everybody is a highly educated, high intelligence achiever. A country of 300 million people needs jobs for the average joe. Not everyone replaced by the Global Economy can find work as a "highly trained logistics expert" (the example in the WSJ) to move goods from one sweatshop to a credit card tapped out older economy. Unless, Average Joe College now has to simply join his high school educated counterparts in the new poor.

As for overproduction, many economists are warning that quite a few segments of the industrial economy have capacity beyond what the purchasing power of the consumers can afford. A classic recipe for a big correction, or Depression.

Of course, as I said above, the new Indian engineers are doing better than most in their country. That's what makes me somewhat question some of my own arguments (the doubt may be hidden) And, this economic growth is not based on strengthening domestic consumption. They are cheap labor benefiting from the remaining pools of high income consumers that their products and servces can support. This pool will dry up, and I doubt that their wages (especially the factory serfs in China) are enough to really pay for all the production that can be cranked out by the new investment. Today's Multinationals have forgotten Henry Ford's arguments. All they care about is cutting costs.

I have no solution because this is the inevitable result of the forces of unfettered markets we have been preaching for years. 1929, here we come. Eventually, the world economy will readjust. It will be brutal, though, and the United States must get used to being a much poorer country. That may, in the end, be more "fair." But, since one major point for the institution of limited liability corporation was to trade liability for public good, you can surely understand why we, as American-specific citizens, feel the multinationals are somewhat traitorous.
 

jresta

Cyburbian
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1,474
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23
history has shown us that the american economy adapts?

adapts to what and how?

we have a 20% child poverty rate. That's basically unchanged for the last 40 years.
Many parts of the South have yet to see the benefits of Reconstruction. Appalachia?

Sure we've seen a lot of wealth being transferred from rust belt cities to sun belt cities but i haven't seen much in the way of wealth being created - or at least being created in the way that it benefits more than a handful of people.

Show me some point in the last 80 years where the economy was doing what it was "supposed to do" and i'll show you a stock or currency bubble, an S&L scandal, or a war all followed by a recession or a depression.
 

Doitnow

Cyburbian
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496
Points
16
but can he consume enough goods and services
Numbers BKM Numbers.
Its a numbers game now.
The New MAcro Economic Priciples are at play here.

If you are even slightly aware of the total population of India and China and their growing middle class.

Generally speaking
I think the good comes with bad.

LEt me say somethings about the bad aspects.

While you think that there will be a glut in the american economy I think there may be a glut in the Indian Economy too. But maybe in about twenty years and that too not sudden but prolonged over a long period of time.
Therefore I think that in todays economy something sudden and/or definite like the depression may not happen. ( Exceptions like brazil).
Although internally the Indian economy has enough strength,these factors will be seen by the Indian Macro economists as they wouldnt want to be too dependent on the economy booming and dependent only on the IT and the BPO wave.

Like you will have some problems, we will have some other problems. But there will be problems. The question is how to tackle them.

TIO , I think you are right about the asian tigers.
Already the Indian BPO giants have started planning for that situation where they face stiff competition from the south asian tigers. But like I said that India has the strength in numbers. ( I hope that doesnt become a disaster in the future :-c)
We have already been through a bad patch after the so called E-commerce Bublle burst and many layoffs resulted in many indians returning home to work for smaller (Indian standard) salaries and I heard that many who preferred to stay back in the US are still facing a tough time and many do all kinds of jobs to sustain.

Back to TIO's argument I have a strange feeling that while some or many jobs will shift to South Asia, the ever changing and dynamic global economy will throw up something else and newer for the large indians to take up.
Even the Indians are quick to adapt.
I remember well that the first outsourcing started because of the Y2K. Now nobody rememers that and everybody talks of the BPO.
So in my opinion, ten years down the line these techies will quickly learn the new technologies to adapt to the changing western economies.

Also I am sure that like there are a few selected americans who are growing richer and richer by the day because of the outsourcing, there many indians who are getting richer too.This way both countries are on same ground
But on the middle class front, the Indian Middle class is getting a lot of benefits while I cant say the same for the American middle class.

This has become a complicated issue to address in detail even in long paragraphs.
I wish there could be a talk on this.

Gist:
PRofessionally I feel that there is definitely an implication on the changing land use patterns and the physical dimensions.
personally there is a direct influence of the changing socio cultural values( I am changing too :p ).
==========================================================
BY the way jresta, BKM and the rest.
Can you think about the GeoPolitical angle to the whole BPO thing.( Agreed that the large Indian population speaks english better than many other country peoples) but still....
 

BKM

Cyburbian
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Well, like I implied, its hard to argue that only America or Western Europe should be allowed to have a "middle class." Especially since the forces seem overwhelming.

Nonetheless, I think jresta's skepticism about the glorious new age arriving once the Untied States ships all of its employment overseas is warranted. A few executives in Bentonville, for example, may have benefited from the vast off-shoring encouraged by WalMart. The long term benefits of destroying local commerce (and union jobs) in exchange for $5.00 off a hairdryer-those benefits may be more questionable. (Have to invoke Sam's Law somewhere!)

As for the glut, I wasn't talking just about India. Every "New Tiger" economy seems to be building steel mills and chip fabrication and automobile assembly plants. Who is going to be buying all this production?
 

The Irish One

Member
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25
Every "New Tiger" economy seems to be building steel mills and chip fabrication and automobile assembly plants. Who is going to be buying all this production?
Well I'll go ahead and say it, STATES, yup that's right all of the Tigers will buy up any produced goods for infrastructure projects, etc...Just borrow against your future. Governments are massive consumers, especially in a developing society.
 

Doitnow

Cyburbian
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496
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16
So I have a question( one of my favourites actually)
AS Planners What do we do about it?
Ever heard about Spatio-Economic Planning??
 

AubieTurtle

Cyburbian
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894
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21
Rumpy Tunanator said:
And what is the deal with American flags being made in Taiwan or even China?
Reminds me of the last company I worked for. We did the website for the Marines... the girl doing the programming was an H1B from China and a member of the communist party there. It was so weird...
 

Doitnow

Cyburbian
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496
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16
Correct me if I am wrong

I was watching 'Fatal Attraction' yesterday( umpteenth time) and theres this scene where Michael Douglas comes out into the rain to find that his umbrella's got stuck.
Glenn Close rushes onto him and offers her umbrella shelter for him and quips " Is that from Taiwan" and Michael dumps his umbrella into the garbage bin closeby.
Now did she say Taiwan or I heard it wrong.
Because if she did then this movie is pretty old now and this taiwan issue is older maybe. :p
 

Wulf9

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Doitnow!! said:
So I have a question( one of my favourites actually)
AS Planners What do we do about it?
Emphasize and support the small scale. Break up monopolies and let small business flourish. Stop the mega mergers which result in thousands of jobs lost and create the large scale business that has resources to outsource. Move taxation from federal and state levels to local levels. Don't pay for local services with federal funds (why ask for federal dollars to fill local potholes). Don't pay or grant federal, state, or local subsidies to national or international scale companies. Small businesses spend dollars locally. Cities spend dollars locally. Small scale businesses, cities, and counties are less likely to outsource.
 

iamme

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485
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14
Wulf9 said:
Move taxation from federal and state levels to local levels. Don't pay for local services with federal funds (why ask for federal dollars to fill local potholes).
While I would agree with this idea to some degree, you are basically asking for a system where there is as little redistribution of income as there could be. I am not saying that massive redirections of wealth are a good thing or beneficial, but at a certain level those redirections make life better for everyone as a whole.
 

Wulf9

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iamme said:
While I would agree with this idea to some degree, you are basically asking for a system where there is as little redistribution of income as there could be. I am not saying that massive redirections of wealth are a good thing or beneficial, but at a certain level those redirections make life better for everyone as a whole.
I am asking that federal and state taxation be stepped down. Federal spending always has "strings." For example, federal funding of bus purchases includes prohibitions against providing services from the city to a regional airport (convoluted explanation not given). Federal education funding includes a set of rules about what to teach, how to test, etc. in order to receive funds.

On the other hand, it is appropriate for federal funding of interstate highways, defense, etc., which is a redistribution of income. It's good to have a nexus between the level of government where services are provided and where taxes are collected.

How does that affect outsourcing of jobs? If local governments had higher percentage of tax revenues, they would undertake local projects with local labor, such as building civic buildings, repairing streets, increasing school services. That is hard to outsource.

A lot of federal spending subsidizes big ag and big business which are more likely to outsource. Those businesses shouldn't have tax support, in my opinion. With a huge central government, those businesses have only to lobby at one level. With decentralized funding, they don't have enough lobbyists to hit all the cities.
 

jresta

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Wulf9 said:
A lot of federal spending subsidizes big ag and big business which are more likely to outsource. Those businesses shouldn't have tax support, in my opinion. With a huge central government, those businesses have only to lobby at one level. With decentralized funding, they don't have enough lobbyists to hit all the cities.
Thank you. I think we should recognize that the consolidation of state power (or federal) is to control the purse strings. Not only that but, while far from perfect, i think there's much more democracy and opportunity for democracy on the local level (ahh the irony of living in a republic).

On the other hand i also understand people who are wary of "state's rights" but i think we should be able to guarantee a mimimum level of liberty for everyone on the federal level while handing down the running of day-to-day affairs to a regional level.

As far as "redistributing wealth", plenty of cities have wage or income taxes instead of or even in addition to property taxes. I agree that when money is collected on a local level it gets spent on a local level and their are fewer middlemen siphoning off funds along the way . . . on the other hand it also opens the door for mafia style corruption. New Jersey and Pennsylvania are excellent examples - the FBI is crawling all over both states and heads are just begining to roll.

I guess my point is that we definitely need more local control and local taxation but not without safeguards and not without some serious "democracy training" (like they're doing in Iraq right now) and civics lessons.
 

BKM

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I agree largely with Wulf, with a caveat that has been partly brought out by others: "local" often means "corrupt"

Its interesting that libertarians are so afraid of government power but seem indifferent to the market power of monopolies.
 

BKM

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Interesting projection from the SF Chronicle: 1 in 6 Bay Area jobs could be offshored.

Even worse, Bay Area Venture Capitalist firms are now REQUIRING new start-ups and other searchers for capital to fully disclose how they are going to use this EXCITING NEW BUSINESS TREND!!!! (trademark).

With the internet, even small companies can be VIRTUAL ENTERPRISES (trademark) and use cheaper labor in foreign lands :)
 

Wulf9

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BKM said:
I agree largely with Wulf, with a caveat that has been partly brought out by others: "local" often means "corrupt"

Its interesting that libertarians are so afraid of government power but seem indifferent to the market power of monopolies.

Two points. Local corruption is localized. National corruption affects the entire nation. In that sense, local corruption is better.

Monopolies are the business equivalent of a tax. But they are a tax without providing services. Microsoft Windows is an approximately $50 tax on each computer sold. You don't get $50 worth of services for that price. Wal Mart and other big boxes have learned how to get governments to pay for part of their operation (location bonuses, food stamps, health care, retirement) - again a tax with no government services provided. Corn subsidies go to multi million dollar corporations - no benefits but are a cost to citizens.

I think it is the emphasis on reducing government taxes and increasing monopolies by government sanction/encouragement/funding etc. is one of the reasons for the jobless recovery and the depth of the current economic malaise.
 

BKM

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You have a good point. It is ironic/blind for me to dismiss/ignore the extent of national corruption.
 

jresta

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Wulf9 said:
Two points. Local corruption is localized. National corruption affects the entire nation. In that sense, local corruption is better.

Monopolies are the business equivalent of a tax. But they are a tax without providing services. Microsoft Windows is an approximately $50 tax on each computer sold. You don't get $50 worth of services for that price. Wal Mart and other big boxes have learned how to get governments to pay for part of their operation (location bonuses, food stamps, health care, retirement) - again a tax with no government services provided. Corn subsidies go to multi million dollar corporations - no benefits but are a cost to citizens.

I think it is the emphasis on reducing government taxes and increasing monopolies by government sanction/encouragement/funding etc. is one of the reasons for the jobless recovery and the depth of the current economic malaise.
and don't forget a lot of "welfare to work" transportation programs are subsidies too (JARC program to name one). Employers get to relocate to a cheap, out of the way location but they get to pay their workers substandard, but legal, wages because the workers are shuttled to work on the tax rolls. Otherwise the shop owner would have to offer a higher wage to attract workers who owned cars and/or relocate to a central area.
 
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