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The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
19,113
Points
42
I find it funny that we as a country care what the founding father's think about anything today. There are lots of discussions that start with that line. The idea that men 200+ years ago would be able to envision a country in 200 years is stupid. They couldn't, and they didn't. The documents they signed are not infallible, nor is our constitution or any other document. The courts have made whatever the founding father's thought pointless anyways, they have just interpreted those documents for today's time.

I think we go back to the Founding Father's because we seem to remember them as respectable and wise. Instead, we should be forcing our currently elected officials to make respectable and wise choices based on the context of the world we live in today. I get we have legal documents that force us to follow certain rules and laws. But we also have chambers of government that are elected to change those rules and laws, and where necessary amend our constitution to cover the current world we live in. Instead we take these old documents and these old men and try and pretend that they knew about the internet and 3D printed guns and would have had thoughts on them....
I both agree and disagree with you on this. In terms of holding our elected officials accountable to make respectable and wise choices based on the context of the world we live in today is so very right, yet never done. Which gets back to my point of the founding fathers. They were not perfect and all had their own flaws. However there are multiple examples of each of them doing the right thing instead of doing the easy thing or the thing that would preserve their wealth, power, status, and their life.

But what are those 'wise and respectable choices' that you talk about today? I think as a culture, it be come more difficult to understand what those are based on a persons foundation beliefs on what the role of the government is and what it isn't. Is the government in place to protect us from ourselves and be our babysitter, or is it the watch dog that protects us from outside forces that desire to do us harm. As you know, I will side closer to the 10th Amendment on this one. And while their is not a definitive consensus today, it was the same 200 years ago and there were many things within the Constitution that are based on compromise. They were willing to forego party politics to create documents that would get ratified by the colonies.

I think that in some areas we are wiser today then citizens 200 years ago, but all too often we get wrapped up in heavy handed approaches to real issues that need to be solved instead of elegant ones that would preserve the intent of these founding documents, protecting the rights of the many, while addressing the issues at hand. Trump's wall is a great example of this. Instead of focusing on ways to improve the immigration process and allow for people to come to the US in a legal and orderly way, he wants to build a wall to keep everyone out. Some gun bills are the same way. The intent is well meaning but the result does nothing to solve the issue and prevent further violence.

Call me stupid if you will, because I believe that many of the founding fathers attempted to envision foundation and fundamental rights that would extend well over 200 years into the future, and I say this because there is evidence that they, especially Franklin and Jefferson, looked as far back as 3,000 years to establish something that had the potential to stand the test of time and that would be adaptable to changing needs. I also think that they did envision potential future issues and even provided an instruction manual in the event that things with the Government got too far out of hand. The Declaration of Independence states "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." Furthermore, Article 5 of the Constitution outlined how to get amendments approved.

Finally, you mentioned the internet and 3D printed guns. You are correct, they did not take these into consideration, nor do I think they needed to. I think that many places have laws against the production of a firearm that is not detectable by xray or metal detector. We don't need a constitutional amendment for that... we just need a way to enforce it.
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
24,414
Points
47
Despite Trump administration denials, new evidence suggests census citizenship question was crafted to benefit white Republicans

The evidence was found in the files of the prominent Republican redistricting strategist Thomas Hofeller after his death in August. It reveals that Hofeller “played a significant role in orchestrating the addition of the citizenship question to the 2020 Decennial Census in order to create a structural electoral advantage for, in his own words, ‘Republicans and Non-Hispanic Whites,’ ” and that Trump administration officials purposely obscured Hofeller’s role in court proceedings, lawyers for plaintiffs challenging the question wrote in a letter to U.S. District Judge Jesse M. Furman.
 

Gedunker

Moderating
Moderator
Messages
10,954
Points
31
The whole USS John S. McCain things is disgusting: first, that Trump would be offended by the name of the ship/its presence in Yokosuka; second, that the White House would instruct (order?) covering the name of a US naval vessel; third, that the Navy (and perhaps as high as the acting SecDef) would comply; and, last, that there appears to be some CYA going on about it in that a barge was/was not moved to obstruct the vessel name and acting SecDef did/did not know about it.

I guess it really is still the same Navy that court martialed exactly one (1) skipper for losing his ship during WWII, and had the temerity to have the (former) enemy combatant's skipper testify against that commander. This nation is going to hell in a handbasket.
 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
13,308
Points
34
Don't forget the patch thing

Military personnel often wear unofficial unit patches, sometimes imbued with humorous images, as part of an effort to build unit cohesion and morale.
However, service members are prohibited from exhibiting political messages while in uniform.

 

imaplanner

Cyburbian
Messages
6,673
Points
27
I began reading the Mueller Report last night and it is pretty depressing. I'm some 60 pages in and so far I haven't seen any "total exoneration" whatsoever, not even hinted.

I'll keep y'all updated as I read more.:rolleyes:
I’ve been listening to it on my drive to work. There are multiple audiobooks of it now. I’m only about 1/3 through it but it’s pretty clear to me that most people commenting publicly about it have either not read it or are willfully misrepresenting it.
 

Gedunker

Moderating
Moderator
Messages
10,954
Points
31
I’ve been listening to it on my drive to work. There are multiple audiobooks of it now. I’m only about 1/3 through it but it’s pretty clear to me that most people commenting publicly about it have either not read it or are willfully misrepresenting it.
I finished Volume I about two weeks ago but life has interrupted in the interim and I haven't begun Volume II yet. A college graduation and a week-long visit from out-of-town family has a way of eating into my reading time.

I believe you are correct that most people (in Congress and the media, especially, but also just plain citizens) have not read the Mueller Report or, like POTUS and the AG, have no compunction about willfully and repeatedly misrepresenting the findings.

That there has been no movement whatever by Congress (I'm looking squarely at you Mitch McConnell) to prevent a repeat of the Russian Army hacking, stealing and disseminating private information to the clear benefit of one candidate and the complete detriment of another candidate (and/or other nefarious actors doing something similar in coming elections) is an absolute dereliction of duty. I question whether social media companies have done enough to prevent foreign citizens from again willfully duping Americans about upcoming elections. And I hope that the next time a campaign is approached by a foreign agent offering dirt on their opponent, the response is to go straight to the FBI, rather than to reply "If it is what you say it is, I love it".

Frankly, I thought Mueller let campaign staff, including POTUS' son, off easy under the grounds that they were duped/ignorant. I was always taught that ignorance of the law is no excuse. I believe more than a slap on the wrist of Jr would have been indeed appropriate and a stern warning to future campaigners.

Finally, if you are considering reading the report but imagine it to be like reading the Congressional Record for fun and enjoyment, think again. Yes, the report is heavily footnoted and the footnotes can get into federal legalese. Yes, it is redacted, but the redactions do not dramatically impact the report's readability. You can read the main body and find it easy to follow and, dare I say, compelling reading. Here at Memorial Day, I would suggest you owe it to those servicemen that didn't come back so that we could maintain our Republic, and inform yourself about the mob currently in control in the WH.
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
9,405
Points
29
Don't forget the patch thing





They were air crew. Nobody expects much out of them in terms of professionalism.
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
9,405
Points
29
Embarked ground troops and ship company wouldn't do that ?
Ground pounders and ships company don't stoop to wearing patches. :troll:

In the Marines, generally the only folks who wear any sort of patch are folks on the air side of operations. Even those not directly involved with flight operations will often wear flight suits or jump suits :rolleyes: and put a unit or personal patch on and they definitely catch flak for it. There's a reason we say that they "swing with the wing". When I was on a MEU I was in the Command Element and if our CO or SgtMaj caught some Marine winger with any sort of patch on their uniform, they'd rip it off immediately. IIRC, the Navy had a different policy and was more lenient. The only time a Marine was permitted to put a patch on was if we were part of a joint operation with foreign nations and might be required to put on an American flag patch, and even then we would resist.

Things have likely changed somewhat in the time since I got out, but a common saying used to be something along the lines of, "If you wanted to wear patches, join the Army or be a clown."

Just like there is interservice rivalry between the various branches, there is also intra-service rivalry: In the Marines, all folks on the ground side think they are tougher than the wingers. Wingers think they are smarter than everybody. Combat arms/infantry think they are better than everybody including all the other ground combat element forces like arty, tanks, recon, LAR/AAV, etc. but those specialized GCE units think their sh!t don't stink. Everybody looks down on pogues and paper pushers but even they look down on each other because of course being randomly sent to a G-1 or a G-3 instead of an S-1 or an S-3 means you are somehow better than those people doing the same job as you at the battalion level.

Oh, and everybody hates PMO.
 
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Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
17,299
Points
52
What is is about Trump that drives his supporters to slap his name up in tribute on their cars, houses, barns, sheds, and the like?



Back in the day, I never saw pickup trucks with REAGAN in big letters on the side, or BUSH painted on the side of some metal building that's home to Joe Bob's Machine Shop or Ray Bob's Small Engine Repair.
 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
13,308
Points
34
Ground pounders and ships company don't stoop to wearing patches. :troll:

In the Marines, generally the only folks who wear any sort of patch are folks on the air side of operations. Even those not directly involved with flight operations will often wear flight suits or jump suits :rolleyes: and put a unit or personal patch on and they definitely catch flak for it. There's a reason we say that they "swing with the wing". When I was on a MEU I was in the Command Element and if our CO or SgtMaj caught some Marine winger with any sort of patch on their uniform, they'd rip it off immediately. IIRC, the Navy had a different policy and was more lenient. The only time a Marine was permitted to put a patch on was if we were part of a joint operation with foreign nations and might be required to put on an American flag patch, and even then we would resist.

Things have likely changed somewhat in the time since I got out, but a common saying used to be something along the lines of, "If you wanted to wear patches, join the Army or be a clown."

Just like there is interservice rivalry between the various branches, there is also intra-service rivalry: In the Marines, all folks on the ground side think they are tougher than the wingers. Wingers think they are smarter than everybody. Combat arms/infantry think they are better than everybody including all the other ground combat element forces like arty, tanks, recon, LAR/AAV, etc. but those specialized GCE units think their sh!t don't stink. Everybody looks down on pogues and paper pushers but even they look down on each other because of course being randomly sent to a G-1 or a G-3 instead of an S-1 or an S-3 means you are somehow better than those people doing the same job as you at the battalion level.

Oh, and everybody hates PMO.
Back in my day when people stayed off my lawn we didn't have these problems. The only unique patch you could wear as ship's company was the command rocker. Air crew had those velcro patches on their flight suits that they would slap on squadron patches. Air crew was different. Most of us just thought it was extra crap so why deal with it. The only extra stuff I wore was a decorative lanyard for my bosun's pipe, but that's specific to only bosuns and you had to make it yourself. It wasn't something that was sold. It was also only worn if you were the person doing the calls (the whistling noise when important people come around). I'm sure other ships did other things, but generally people on my ship would never want to deal with that crap. It would mean standing at attention for an hour while some politicians drones on about how important he is. I'd rather hide below deck and watch Jerry Springer. We also never would have consented to cover the name of our ship. Why would you go and disrespect the Admiral or whoever your ship was named for. Knowing my Captains they would have asked us to paint the name in neon colors and fly signal flags proclaiming the ships name. Because show me the rule that says I can't do that (there is one about the color of the name)
 

Maister

Chairman of the bored
Messages
26,393
Points
52
Ground pounders and ships company don't stoop to wearing patches. :troll:

In the Marines, generally the only folks who wear any sort of patch are folks on the air side of operations. Even those not directly involved with flight operations will often wear flight suits or jump suits :rolleyes: and put a unit or personal patch on and they definitely catch flak for it. There's a reason we say that they "swing with the wing". When I was on a MEU I was in the Command Element and if our CO or SgtMaj caught some Marine winger with any sort of patch on their uniform, they'd rip it off immediately. IIRC, the Navy had a different policy and was more lenient. The only time a Marine was permitted to put a patch on was if we were part of a joint operation with foreign nations and might be required to put on an American flag patch, and even then we would resist.

Things have likely changed somewhat in the time since I got out, but a common saying used to be something along the lines of, "If you wanted to wear patches, join the Army or be a clown."

Just like there is interservice rivalry between the various branches, there is also intra-service rivalry: In the Marines, all folks on the ground side think they are tougher than the wingers. Wingers think they are smarter than everybody. Combat arms/infantry think they are better than everybody including all the other ground combat element forces like arty, tanks, recon, LAR/AAV, etc. but those specialized GCE units think their sh!t don't stink. Everybody looks down on pogues and paper pushers but even they look down on each other because of course being randomly sent to a G-1 or a G-3 instead of an S-1 or an S-3 means you are somehow better than those people doing the same job as you at the battalion level.

Oh, and everybody hates PMO.
I understand everything you just said, but I would guess most read that as lots of jargon.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,985
Points
29
This may be a confusion regarding Ben Carson's recent flub while speaking to Congress where he got REO mixed up and said "oreo" versus using the word "oreo" as a derogatory term for a black person that "acts white."

I'm assuming Planit wanted to send Oreos based on the former, not the latter.
Ask yourself if you'd do the same gymnastics to absolve a Republican for going all oreo on a black Democrat.
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
11,440
Points
33
Ask yourself if you'd do the same gymnastics to absolve a Republican for going all oreo on a black Democrat.
Yes. Because it was entirely in reference to the fact that Ben doesn't even know the basic elements of his job...REO is a standard real estate term and the for HOUSING & URBAN DEVELOPMENT Secretary not to know this is very sad. He's the one that initially said Oreo in the hearing. It has no implied racist meaning in my post as you indicate or assume.
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
24,414
Points
47
He rose to the occasion giving a good and extremely appropriate, reverant, honoring speech.
 

Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
4,611
Points
26
He rose to the occasion giving a good and extremely appropriate, reverent, honoring speech.
Grandpa Bubba, 147th Engineer Combat Battalion, Dog White Sector, Omaha Beach. Didn't make it off the LST. RIP, dude.
 
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Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
4,611
Points
26
Four of the eleventy billion Dem candidates for President are making appearances in Atlanta today. That's interesting in light of the chairman of the state Democratic party complaining a couple of weeks ago that none of the candidates had any sort of campaign infrastructure established in Georgia - I wonder if that's suddenly changed.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
19,113
Points
42
He rose to the occasion giving a good and extremely appropriate, reverent, honoring speech.
I agree... and his speech writers and his handlers should be commended for that. I think he wanted to do a good job and this is one of the few occasions that he realized that it was not about him.
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
24,414
Points
47
AIB FB posting -

Former White House Ethics Chief Proposes ‘Golf On Your Own Damn Dime Act’

sarcastically proposing

The taxpayer tab for president’s pricey golf outings is now up to nearly $106 million, according to a HuffPost analysis. But what’s unique for a golfing president is that Trump owns the resorts he’s visiting, so the publicly funded trips also serve to finance and advertise his private businesses.
 

Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
4,611
Points
26
Four of the eleventy billion Dem candidates for President are making appearances in Atlanta today. That's interesting in light of the chairman of the state Democratic party complaining a couple of weeks ago that none of the candidates had any sort of campaign infrastructure established in Georgia - I wonder if that's suddenly changed.
...and it's going to be a long two years, apparently.

 

Maister

Chairman of the bored
Messages
26,393
Points
52
The President says he's all ears if there are foreign governments offering to provide dirt on his opponents in an election and maybe wouldn't bother to even tell the FBI if approached by a foreign agent with such an offer.

You KNOW you're living in strange times when this sort of public pronouncement registers as scarcely more than background noise with either the shock factor or the media coverage it receives.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,985
Points
29
Me: Generally against war.

Also Me: Iran has lots of unavenged American service member's blood on its hands in addition to the blood of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. I wouldn't shed a tear if I woke up to the news that a massive multinational campaign of decapitation strikes had started in the wee hours of the morning and was still ongoing.
 

Suburb Repairman

moderator in moderation
Moderator
Messages
7,311
Points
30
I don't understand why we continue to prop up Saudi Arabia. We act like Iran is the worst thing, and quite honestly Saudi Arabia is doing most of the same shit. Also, Saudi Arabia is the country with the talent for producing terrorists that have successfully accomplished acts on American soil. Yet Jared Kushner is doing is best bromance routine with the Saudis.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
19,113
Points
42
I don't understand why we continue to prop up Saudi Arabia. We act like Iran is the worst thing, and quite honestly Saudi Arabia is doing most of the same shit. Also, Saudi Arabia is the country with the talent for producing terrorists that have successfully accomplished acts on American soil. Yet Jared Kushner is doing is best bromance routine with the Saudis.
I don't understand why we continue to prop up most of the places that we do... oh wait. It is because they have resources that help companies line the pockets of lobbyists on the tax payers dime. I would love for a new administration to come in, really clear house, and shift the focus to more of a local first mentality. We have uncontrollable environmental, social, and economic issues right here in our own country but we are too worried about what is going on half way around the world because to actually do anything about it here.
 
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