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The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

mendelman

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Today is the 44th anniversary of Nixon's resignation.

Hm....

:thinking:
 

michaelskis

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Is anger and hatred towards Trump supporters acceptable? I was in a larger urban core for a lunch meeting this afternoon, and the person behind me was ranting and raving about how Trump is to blame for the recent shootings, and then someone at her table commented that if he sees someone in a MAGA hat, he is going to beat the $&#! out of them. I was waiting for someone to speak up, but instead the woman commented that she will do the same for anyone who voted for Trump.

It was a very artsy restaurant and it was evident that it had a left leaning vibe to it, so I did not expect to see too many Trump supporters in there, but I was taken back by the hatred expressed. No, I don't expect that they would actually attack anyone, but it was enough to get me thinking. I looked it up, and apparently there have been Trump supporters attacked, including one in NYC last week who had a MAGA hat on.

Is this type of rhetoric acceptable in today's society? If someone said that about a Hillary supporter, would that be any different?
 

michaelskis

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Interesting, everyone is blaming Trump for the mass shootings this weekend, and while yes, the El Paso shooter was a white suprematist/right with extremist/domestic terrorist... the Dayton shooter was a liberal extremest/ domestic terrorist.

Maybe both extremes of the political spectrum are just as bad...
 

Veloise

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It has something to do with his sister I think. There's video of them together at a bar a few hours before the shooting and she was killed in it. IMO she was the target and the rest of the victims were unfortunately collateral damage.

It is interesting to see a far-left activist get national coverage though. You never hear about them, and they are absolutely just as dangerous as the right.
Turns out his sibling was a trans man. The plot thickens ...
 
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DVD

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Either way it comes down to a crazy white guy with a gun. I started profiling myself to make sure I'm not one of them. A quick pat down to make sure I don't have a gun on me. A read through The Facebook to make sure there's no crazy anti whatever discussions. You never know.
 

Dan

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Interesting, everyone is blaming Trump for the mass shootings this weekend, and while yes, the El Paso shooter was a white suprematist/right with extremist/domestic terrorist... the Dayton shooter was a liberal extremest/ domestic terrorist.
Since the recent round of the culture wars began, a "punching down" aspect of an incident will tend to get far more attention than a "punching up" aspect of a similar incident. The white supremacy motivation of the El Paso shooting is front and center in the media and in online discussion. The media seemed to give the "kill whitey" motivation of the 2016 downtown Dallas shooting only a passing mention. No "sparking national conversations", no calls to disassociate the larger group of white people in America from the bigotry and intolerance of some of their forebearers.

Nobody knows the motivations of the Dayton shooter. We do know he romanticized violence. His ideology is far left, but we don’t know if his intent was to off some conservatives. We do know the El Paso shooter targeted Mexicans and Mexican-Americans at Cielo Vista Mall. (For what it's worth, I've shopped there before. In English, the mall's name means "sky view" or "heaven view" -- sadly ironic.) Either way, it's too easy for a single American -- regardless of ancestry or personal ideology -- to have the power of life or death over tens or hundreds of their fellow humans like that. This shit needs to stop, but our leaders are too beholden to a small group of greedy gun manufacturers and idealogue gun owners to do anything. The lives of the people they represent are worth less than a stupid NRA “A” rating.
 

Hink

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Interesting, everyone is blaming Trump for the mass shootings this weekend, and while yes, the El Paso shooter was a white suprematist/right with extremist/domestic terrorist... the Dayton shooter was a liberal extremest/ domestic terrorist.

Maybe both extremes of the political spectrum are just as bad...
I blame the ease of getting guns. I don't care about your political reasoning, your racist reasoning, or your religious reasoning. If they didn't have guns, they would have killed less people. The concept that we are trying to "fix" anything is stupid. We can't stop them completely. That isn't the point. The point is to lessen it. Make it somewhat better. TRY SOMETHING.

I don't blame Trump for the shootings, I blame the guy who was able to get weapons to do this. I wish Trump wouldn't speak like he does, and it certainly doesn't help our country become better people, but we all have to stop blaming the other side. Extremism is an evil with no political agenda. Domestic terrorism is still terrorism.
 

Suburb Repairman

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Actually no... there are general estimates, but we don't really know. (LINK)
Correct. We have to rely on survey statistics because, in this country, we can't even TALK about gun registration. We can't take a "gun census," although I think that would be a fascinating Census question. But it shouldn't be asked for the same reason the citizenship question should not be asked--it would cool the response to the Census. That means the best we can do is survey statistics, which is a scientifically valid approach to study. You did notice that I used the words "about" and "estimated", right? Even then, there is almost no money available for gun research because the place best equipped to study it, the CDC, is prohibited from doing so.
 

michaelskis

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Since the recent round of the culture wars began, a "punching down" aspect of an incident will tend to get far more attention than a "punching up" aspect of a similar incident. The white supremacy motivation of the El Paso shooting is front and center in the media and in online discussion. The media seemed to give the "kill whitey" motivation of the 2016 downtown Dallas shooting only a passing mention. No "sparking national conversations", no calls to disassociate the larger group of white people in America from the bigotry and intolerance of some of their forebearers.

Nobody knows the motivations of the Dayton shooter. We do know he romanticized violence. His ideology is far left, but we don’t know if his intent was to off some conservatives. We do know the El Paso shooter targeted Mexicans and Mexican-Americans at Cielo Vista Mall. (For what it's worth, I've shopped there before. In English, the mall's name means "sky view" or "heaven view" -- sadly ironic.) Either way, it's too easy for a single American -- regardless of ancestry or personal ideology -- to have the power of life or death over tens or hundreds of their fellow humans like that. This shit needs to stop, but our leaders are too beholden to a small group of greedy gun manufacturers and idealogue gun owners to do anything. The lives of the people they represent are worth less than a stupid NRA “A” rating.
I blame the ease of getting guns. I don't care about your political reasoning, your racist reasoning, or your religious reasoning. If they didn't have guns, they would have killed less people. The concept that we are trying to "fix" anything is stupid. We can't stop them completely. That isn't the point. The point is to lessen it. Make it somewhat better. TRY SOMETHING.

I don't blame Trump for the shootings, I blame the guy who was able to get weapons to do this. I wish Trump wouldn't speak like he does, and it certainly doesn't help our country become better people, but we all have to stop blaming the other side. Extremism is an evil with no political agenda. Domestic terrorism is still terrorism.
I completely agree that we need a realistic system in place that prevents the wrong people from getting guns. There is zero argument with me on that one. The question is how do we go about doing it in a way that we can all agree on. I really question if this is something that the democrats really want to do, or if they are just saying that they do to gain political points. A few years ago, they had control of the House, Senate, and White House... why didn't they put in a grand plan back then? I am 100% for advanced background checks. One idea that a conservative friend suggested was requiring someone to go through the same level of training and background checks as if they were getting a CPL for their first weapon, and then just the basic checks there after. Do think that would work?

Correct. We have to rely on survey statistics because, in this country, we can't even TALK about gun registration. We can't take a "gun census," although I think that would be a fascinating Census question. But it shouldn't be asked for the same reason the citizenship question should not be asked--it would cool the response to the Census. That means the best we can do is survey statistics, which is a scientifically valid approach to study. You did notice that I used the words "about" and "estimated", right? Even then, there is almost no money available for gun research because the place best equipped to study it, the CDC, is prohibited from doing so.
The problem with estimated is there are so many different ways to estimate it. I think there should be a registration process that at least takes new firearms purchases into consideration. When you buy a weapon, the FFL should be required to enter the purchase details including serial number and owners information into a system. Depending on the state, some already have similar programs. When I bought my first handgun, I had to register it with the Sheriffs Department... and guess what, it was no big deal.

The bigger issue is why do these folks do these things. Yes, the tool that they use is significant, but so the their reasoning and intent. When we can better understand why they do what they do, the better we as a society can be equipped to make sure that they do not have access to anything that could be a weapon, but that they also receive the help they need.

On a side note, this was from April of 2018, but I think he brings up some interesting discussion points. First you notice he does not oppose keeping guns out of the hands of those who should not have them. He does however oppose regulations that will result in unnecessary restrictions or elimination of his rights, which is what some from the far left are calling for... What are your thoughts to his speech?
 

DVD

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I think this all takes a grown up approach of locking a few congressmen in a room and making them have a discussion with no political grandstanding involved. The first problem is defining gun "rights". On the extreme, everything is a right on the other nothing is. Leaving all the AK/AR 4715 whatevers out of it. We have limits on what you can and can't own. You have an absolute right to say a 45. You have no right to an RPG. Both are "arms". So somewhere some thoughtful people need to spell out exactly what you can and can't own. Easier said than done. The next problem comes down to accessories. Do you have a right to a 5 round clip? What about 15 or 50? Do you have a right to a silencer or bump stocks or any of the wonderful modification we can do to our guns or do you just have a right to an unmodified musket? It all goes back to educated people hammering out the discussion without heavy political influence. Whatever happened to saying we have a problem and we'll go discuss it? The other problem comes from what Mskies said unintentional - or not, what do I know. A solution we can ALL agree on. You will never get all of us to agree on anything. I think that's part of what is paralyzing congress (only a small part). They want to create a solution for everyone or at least for all of their people. In the end someone will get hurt feelings.
 

Veloise

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How convenient to have a medical encyclopedia at my fingertips.

"Due to its position, the hyoid bone is not easily susceptible to fracture. In a suspected case of murder or physical abuse, a fractured hyoid strongly indicates throttling or strangulation in an adult." --Wikipedia
 
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michaelskis

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How convenient to have a medical encyclopedia at my fingertips.

"Due to its position, the hyoid bone is not easily susceptible to fracture. In a suspected case of murder or physical abuse, a fractured hyoid strongly indicates throttling or strangulation in an adult." --Wikipedia
100% Agree...

How many times did Bill Clinton hang out with Epstein and rode on his plane?
 

AG74683

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How convenient to have a medical encyclopedia at my fingertips.

"Due to its position, the hyoid bone is not easily susceptible to fracture. In a suspected case of murder or physical abuse, a fractured hyoid strongly indicates throttling or strangulation in an adult." --Wikipedia
Uh yeah, he violently choked himself to death duh. Don't ask questions or you'll find yourself on a list!
 

Dan

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Aaaaaand ... John Hickenlooper is out of the race. It's too bad, but the field was really crowded, and he had zero buzz. I think Hickenlooper -- and a lot of the Democratic candidates who aren't in Congress already-- would have made more of an impact if they ran against incumbemt Republicans for House or Senate seats.
 

Faust_Motel

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Soo, howbout that economy? Anybody checked their retirement plan this morning?

/haha I'm in my 40's, I'm never going to retire anyway what does it matter?
 

Veloise

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Aaaaaand ... John Hickenlooper is out of the race. It's too bad, but the field was really crowded, and he had zero buzz. I think Hickenlooper -- and a lot of the Democratic candidates who aren't in Congress already-- would have made more of an impact if they ran against incumbemt Republicans for House or Senate seats.
Dan Savage had some good commentary about that, related to the Green party.

"You don't do that by trotting out the reanimated corpse of Ralph f----- Nader every four f----- years."
 
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Gedunker

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Soo, howbout that economy? Anybody checked their retirement plan this morning?

/haha I'm in my 40's, I'm never going to retire anyway what does it matter?
I just turned 59. I can't bear to look at my pension plan.
If Trump makes it all go POOF Imma be pissed.
 

Dan

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Soo, howbout that economy? Anybody checked their retirement plan this morning?
I don't plan on retiring, because the Great Recession really, really hit me hard. I'll probably be one of those semi-retired planners who has some small-time comp plan / zoning rewrite / temp jobs here and there. My wife is a few years younger than me, and I'd feel weird being at home while she's still working.

How many times did Bill Clinton hang out with Epstein and rode on his plane?
Epstein knew a LOT of powerful people, not just the Clintons. I wonder if he's got a dead man switch ...
 

Faust_Motel

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I don't plan on retiring, because the Great Recession really, really hit me hard. I'll probably be one of those semi-retired planners who has some small-time comp plan / zoning rewrite / temp jobs here and there. My wife is a few years younger than me, and I'd feel weird being at home while she's still working.
I'll be paying student loans pretty much right until my son leaves for college. I'll (hopefully) have a pension (municipal employees here are basically in the state retirement system) but I can't see myself and my wife really getting ahead in such a way that we truly retire until we are no longer medically able to work.

Epstein knew a LOT of powerful people, not just the Clintons. I wonder if he's got a dead man switch ...
I think he was such a narcissist that he would rather relish the thought that nobody will ever know what he knew.
 

WSU MUP Student

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Aaaaaand ... John Hickenlooper is out of the race. It's too bad, but the field was really crowded, and he had zero buzz. I think Hickenlooper -- and a lot of the Democratic candidates who aren't in Congress already-- would have made more of an impact if they ran against incumbemt Republicans for House or Senate seats.
I liked him and I wish he would have had a bit more buzz, but oh well. I just like the fact that Michael Bennet worked as John Hickenlooper's Chief of Staff when he was mayor of Denver.
 

Dan

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Dan Savage had some good commentary about that, related to the Green party.
Love it. During the last presidential election cycle, there were a ton of Jill Stein lawn signs around here. In previous elections, the county where I live had the highest or second highest percentage of votes nationally for Green Party presidential candidates. However, I've never seen a Green Party candidate for any municipal, county, or school district office on the ballot. The Democratic Socialists are very active around here, and there was a socialist mayor in the 1990s. Since I moved here, though, I haven't seen any socialist candidates on the ticket.
 

michaelskis

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Epstein knew a LOT of powerful people, not just the Clintons. I wonder if he's got a dead man switch ...
Did he have paintings of them in blue dresses similar to the one he had of Bill? (I don't know the answer... but it is way too twisted to not bring up)
 

Dan

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Bumper stickers that read “ELECT WOMEN” are a fairly common sight around here. I wonder if the people that display them think it applies to candidates from any party.

Is there still anyplace in the Democratic Party for a progressive Bill Maher liberal who scorns identity politics, and is a more of a rationalist than woke?
 

Hink

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Bumper stickers that read “ELECT WOMEN” are a fairly common sight around here. I wonder if the people that display them think it applies to candidates from any party.

Is there still anyplace in the Democratic Party for a progressive Bill Maher liberal who scorns identity politics, and is a more of a rationalist than woke?
Unfortunately no. That is why they keep losing to Republicans that have no place winning. The D's need to get away from identity politics and they will win in a landslide.
 

Planit

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What do you think it will take to really have viable 3rd or 4th party options for major offices?

I think the reality of having 'Independent' candidates is much more viable than another party. That might turn into a party after several decades, but not soon.
 

Hink

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What do you think it will take to really have viable 3rd or 4th party options for major offices?
Rich people with enough money to self fund candidates for a couple of cycles. The Koch brothers and others get together and create their dream platform and run candidates that follow it. The libertarian on the right and green party on the left could work if they put more money into them. Unfortunately at this time the rich people keep supporting the R's and D's, which isn't helping the nation.

Personally I think that if either side came up with a viable alternative to the D's and R's, it would make the D's and R's start trying harder to not suck as much. They would have to play to the middle more instead of the crazy wings of the party, which cause most of the issues we see in the country now. If we had moderate R's and moderate D's we would see things getting done. It is both parties wings that are causing nothing to get done.
 

michaelskis

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Rich people with enough money to self fund candidates for a couple of cycles. The Koch brothers and others get together and create their dream platform and run candidates that follow it. The libertarian on the right and green party on the left could work if they put more money into them. Unfortunately at this time the rich people keep supporting the R's and D's, which isn't helping the nation.

Personally I think that if either side came up with a viable alternative to the D's and R's, it would make the D's and R's start trying harder to not suck as much. They would have to play to the middle more instead of the crazy wings of the party, which cause most of the issues we see in the country now. If we had moderate R's and moderate D's we would see things getting done. It is both parties wings that are causing nothing to get done.
I also think it is because not enough people are vocal regarding how the Commission on Presidential Debates is structured and their rules. Even within a single party, it is situated that those who poll the highest get the most airtime even though they might not be the best candidate. For a 3rd party candidate to really have a chance, there needs to be an unimaginable public campaign just to get their name and ideas out, just to give them a chance to argue with the R & D on TV. Heck, Gary Johnson ended up getting 4.5 Million votes which was more than 3.25% of the total population, and he wasn't able to be on stage.

And while I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, here are my thoughts on how to fix this...
1) Following the party conventions, the top 5 polling candidates will get to be in the TV debates. Let people know they don't need to pick from Dumb and Dumber and they have a whole cast of characters to pick from!
2) Do away with straight party vote. Make them fill in the damn bubbles for every race and vote for the person, not the party.
3) a) Have congressional districts that are fair. Some of these are beyond stupid.
3) b) The winner of each congressional district gets one electoral college vote and the candidate that gets the most votes for each state get the other 2 votes. That way NYC and LA don't get to elect the president...
4) Go back to the way it once was, where the VP as the 2nd place finisher...
 

Hink

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I also think it is because not enough people are vocal regarding how the Commission on Presidential Debates is structured and their rules. Even within a single party, it is situated that those who poll the highest get the most airtime even though they might not be the best candidate. For a 3rd party candidate to really have a chance, there needs to be an unimaginable public campaign just to get their name and ideas out, just to give them a chance to argue with the R & D on TV. Heck, Gary Johnson ended up getting 4.5 Million votes which was more than 3.25% of the total population, and he wasn't able to be on stage.

And while I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, here are my thoughts on how to fix this...
1) Following the party conventions, the top 5 polling candidates will get to be in the TV debates. Let people know they don't need to pick from Dumb and Dumber and they have a whole cast of characters to pick from!
2) Do away with straight party vote. Make them fill in the damn bubbles for every race and vote for the person, not the party.
3) a) Have congressional districts that are fair. Some of these are beyond stupid.
3) b) The winner of each congressional district gets one electoral college vote and the candidate that gets the most votes for each state get the other 2 votes. That way NYC and LA don't get to elect the president...
4) Go back to the way it once was, where the VP as the 2nd place finisher...
5) Remove the Electoral College and make people get votes not states. Votes should matter whether you are a Republican in California or a Democrat in Mississippi.
 
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