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The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
13,857
Points
41
she's a lock to turn this into Handel - McBath Part II. I'm not sure my recycling bin is big enough for the volume of campaign mailers we're going to receive.
The national news has decided Arizona is a possible swing state. More specifically the county I live in - which happens to have Phoenix and the bulk of the population. To make it worse I', registered as an independent. I challenge you to a recycling duel of political crap!
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
11,937
Points
38
tRump quote:
In his Tuesday remarks, Trump blasted the media for speculating about the unscheduled Walter Reed visit and denounced them as "dangerous" and "corrupt" for raising questions.

"I was greeted with the news that I had a heart attack, I was greeted by our people in PR that I had a heart attack...these people are sick," he said of the media. "The press really, in this country, is dangerous. We don't have freedom of speech in this country, we have the opposite. We have a very corrupt media, and I hope they can get their act together."


BUT it was okay when you attacked Hillary on her health 'issues" when you were running...oh that's right, nevermind, it's about you this time!
 

Hink

OH....IO
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Moderator
Messages
14,914
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40
Today will go one of two ways:

A. Gordon Sondland tells the truth and blows this whole thing out of the water.

B. Gordon Sondland continues to white lie, to protect Trump.
B.1. Gordon Sondland follows Roger Stone to jail...

----

Also, it is refreshing to see Mayor Pete moving up in the polls. It is almost like the D's want to win. Tonight will be interesting to see how he handles being attacked by everyone.
 

Suburb Repairman

moderator in moderation
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If Mayor Pete can address his ability to relate to minority voters and issues related to voter suppression better, he'll be the winner. I always lean towards folks that have technocrat tendencies--part of why Mayor Pete and even Warren have tended to appeal to me. He needs to come up with his answer to those key questions involving race relations & functional democracy--he can't just lean on the "I'm in an oppressed group as well" argument because his status isn't apparent in the way skin color is and has been historically, plus South Bend has a little history that he really cannot ignore. And he needs to do it in a way that doesn't feel patronizing or condescending--he needs to show that he legitimately understands and cares about the issue. He cannot fake it--that will get sniffed out.

Plus, I think it is time for a military veteran in the Oval Office again--a modern one that better understands today's challenges with returning military and issues with our engagement choices.
 

AG74683

Cyburbian
Messages
6,147
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27
A. Gordon Sondland tells the truth and blows this whole thing out of the water.
Looks like it's this one. Not only did he expressly implicate Trump, he opted to drop a nuke on the entire administration.
 

Maister

Chairman of the bored
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Looks like it's this one. Not only did he expressly implicate Trump, he opted to drop a nuke on the entire administration.
So a confirmed yes on quid pro quo. Testimony provided that's not based on hearsay. Yes Ukraine aid was held up on Trump's express order and money was only released after getting caught.

I'm curious what meritorious defenses are remaining?
 

Hink

OH....IO
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14,914
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40
If Mayor Pete can address his ability to relate to minority voters and issues related to voter suppression better, he'll be the winner. I always lean towards folks that have technocrat tendencies--part of why Mayor Pete and even Warren have tended to appeal to me. He needs to come up with his answer to those key questions involving race relations & functional democracy--he can't just lean on the "I'm in an oppressed group as well" argument because his status isn't apparent in the way skin color is and has been historically, plus South Bend has a little history that he really cannot ignore. And he needs to do it in a way that doesn't feel patronizing or condescending--he needs to show that he legitimately understands and cares about the issue. He cannot fake it--that will get sniffed out.

Plus, I think it is time for a military veteran in the Oval Office again--a modern one that better understands today's challenges with returning military and issues with our engagement choices.
I like that he isn't over 60. That is a HUGE sell for me.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
19,461
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44
Agreed. And he's even under 40.

If he's elected or even gets the nomination, he should win every "40 under 40" professional list until he's 40. ;)
Not a fan of several of his policies... therefore he will not be getting my vote... but then again, neither will Trump.
 

Hink

OH....IO
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Not a fan of several of his policies... therefore he will not be getting my vote... but then again, neither will Trump.
I would imagine voting for a third party would have validity if there was a third party that is even trying this go around. But there isn't (at least not that I have heard of at this point). I'm sure there will be a non-viable libertarian or green party candidate.

So you just aren't going to vote?
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
19,461
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I would imagine voting for a third party would have validity if there was a third party that is even trying this go around. But there isn't (at least not that I have heard of at this point). I'm sure there will be a non-viable libertarian or green party candidate.

So you just aren't going to vote?
If needed, I will write someone in. Maister is correct that I will vote, but I will not vote for someone who's policies or character are fundamentally opposed to my own positions. Thus far, I have not found one who is running that I can support.
 

MD Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
2,016
Points
27
It really does get tiring election after election of choosing between the lesser of who cares in the presidential race.
 

Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
4,908
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29
GA-6 continues to look like we're gearing up for another messy campaign. In 2016, Karen Handle (R) defeated Jon Ossoff (D) in the most expensive Congressional election campaign in history. In 2018, she lost the seat to Lucy McBath (D) over a combination of Trump fatigue and a complete lack of a focused campaign effort. Handel is back for the 2020 campaign, and has very quietly shored up party support from the GOP establishment - she's a lock to turn this into Handel - McBath Part II. I'm not sure my recycling bin is big enough for the volume of campaign mailers we're going to receive.
...and the first doorbell ring of this election cycle happened last night during dinner. :cursing:
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
19,461
Points
44
My neighbor who moved here from New York a few years ago said that he hopes that Elise Stefanik runs for president at some point. I was looking at where she stands on several issues (pro-life, pro-gun with reasonable regulations and background checks, pro environment, against Obamacare but wants it to be replaced with a better health care program, lower taxes...) and I was curious if anyone knew anything else about her? From what I can find, she does the right thing instead of towing the party line.
 

AG74683

Cyburbian
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6,147
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Did anyone catch Adam Schiff's closing speech yesterday? It was without a doubt one of the most powerful political speeches I've heard in a long time, maybe ever.

 

Suburb Repairman

moderator in moderation
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31
against Obamacare but wants it to be replaced with a better health care program, lower taxes...) and I was curious if anyone knew anything else about her? From what I can find, she does the right thing instead of towing the party line.
Anytime I see this as a platform, I'm immediately skeptical. Not a single candidate advocating a "better healthcare program" has actually proposed anything better. It is just white noise red meat. Obamacare and the idea of insurance markets & compulsory insurance originates from the GOP and specifically Bob Dole as a minimum intervention respecting the free-ish market. It was in response to the Clinton single-payer initiative. The ACA was, fundamentally, the experiment in the GOP method of healthcare delivery & healthcare cost management. This is why the GOP cannot put together any comprehensive reform to it and agree.

Risk of medical bankruptcy and insurance cost is pretty much the number one thing holding back American entrepreneur-ism.

Also, she's pretty party line. She reminds me of a female Paul Ryan--talks a big game but the voting record speaks otherwise for the most part especially when you look at her stated reasoning for voting against party on a few things.
 
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AG74683

Cyburbian
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American healthcare is an incredibly deep issue. The ACA was a good step, but it doesn't really get to the heart of the problem. Which is mainly that American healthcare is essentially a legal monopoly of sorts. The whole CON concept is a ridiculous to me. The fact that it still even exists is a testament to the fact that healthcare companies have state and federal legislators in the palm of their hands. Healthcare in this country won't be fixed until legislators take the difficult step to stop looking at it as a business, and look at it as a need.
 

Dan

Dear Leader
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Just a lazy random thought: my current short list of Democratic candidates I'd support in the primary, in order of preference..
  • Cory Booker. I'm impressed by his tenure as mayor or Newark, and I like his support of "baby bonds" (a concept I first heard about year ago, as a race-neutral alternative to reparations). Addressing racial economic inequality is a major part of his platform, but he doesn't resort to SJW tropes. He also supports single-payer universal health care, criminal justice reform, and ending the war on drugs. He'd be our first Generation X president.
  • Pete Buttigieg. A pragmatic liberal in the tradition of Barack Obama. He'd be our first Millennial president.
  • Elizabeth Warren. She has a plan for it. Still a Boomer, though.
  • Bernie Sanders. My fave four years ago, but I'm beginning to think his time has passed. His ideas influenced the platforms of many current candidates, so in some way he accomplished what he set out to do.
 

Maister

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What appears to have been completely lost in the Mueller report was the reporting that there is unanimous agreement among ALL of our intelligence agencies that Russia conducted a high level effort to manipulate the 2016 elections.

I am ashamed that the Republican party appears to now be openly embracing the political maskirovka launched by the Russian intelligence services (ie. it was Ukraine, not Russia that interfered in our elections). Russian intelligence agencies have got to be (deservedly) patting themselves on the back for pulling off what amounts to one of the most successful ops in the last century. The op is still being conducted, for the record.
 

Gedunker

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There's also something rotten in the termination/resignation of SecNav. I get the sense there's more to the story than what we've heard so far.
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
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9,782
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34
There's also something rotten in the termination/resignation of SecNav. I get the sense there's more to the story than what we've heard so far.
I think it basically boils down to the SecNav wanted servicemembers to be held accountable to laws, the Geneva Convention, the UCMJ, and ROE whereas the President thinks he gets some sort of tough guy cred by allowing people to get away riding roughshod over those rules and standards even though that behavior puts other servicemembers in danger and raises the question of whether we're really a nation of rules that follows good order and rules of law. And then the SecDef turns out to be just another toadie.

While I am sure there are probably other active duty officers and enlisted, including SEALs, who think Gallagher got the correct outcome there are plenty more (maybe even a majority) who think he should have been demoted, lost his Trident, and been served a Big Chicken Dinner. Just take a look at the comments sections on places like the Navy Times or Marine Corps Times.

Sometimes I think most of the people who think Gallagher's actions were right and justified just have no actual experience with the military other than becoming all jingoistic since 9/11 and have no idea why things like Rules of Engagement and the Geneva Convention even exist.

There have been a bunch of problems in the SOC community in the past few years and I would not be surprised to see this case be a catalyst to some real change. At the very least, I expect there may be some more sudden retirements in the DoD, Navy, and SOC command groups in the coming weeks because of this.
 

kjel

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Just a lazy random thought: my current short list of Democratic candidates I'd support in the primary, in order of preference..
  • Cory Booker. I'm impressed by his tenure as mayor or Newark, and I like his support of "baby bonds" (a concept I first heard about year ago, as a race-neutral alternative to reparations). Addressing racial economic inequality is a major part of his platform, but he doesn't resort to SJW tropes. He also supports single-payer universal health care, criminal justice reform, and ending the war on drugs. He'd be our first Generation X president.
  • Pete Buttigieg. A pragmatic liberal in the tradition of Barack Obama. He'd be our first Millennial president.
  • Elizabeth Warren. She has a plan for it. Still a Boomer, though.
  • Bernie Sanders. My fave four years ago, but I'm beginning to think his time has passed. His ideas influenced the platforms of many current candidates, so in some way he accomplished what he set out to do.
As someone who lives in Newark and had significant business with the city during Booker's tenure, I can tell you he is a poser and that Newark was a convenient stepping stool to whatever was next for him. Former Gov. Christie headed him off at the pass during his second term re-election bid courtesy of Sen. "Uncle Frank" Lautenberg kicking the bucket right on cue which resulted Christie nominating him to fulfill the unexpired term. Booker should NEVER be in charge of running anything ever again.

1. Racial economic inequality did not improve in Newark.
2. Newark Police Department operates under a DOJ consent decree due to excessive and repeat racial profiling police tactics during his tenure (to be fair they existed prior to him being mayor).
3. Newark has structural property tax issues due to long term tax abatements that his administration gave away like candy.
4. Newark Public Schools were under state control for 20 years. Booker cooperated with Christie, the state education commissioner, and the district superintendent to convert 40% of the schools to charter-closing neighborhood schools.
5. The Newark Watershed scandal https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2016/01/newark-watershed-corruption-staggering-even-to-jaded-observers-029688
 

Dan

Dear Leader
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1. Racial economic inequality did not improve in Newark.
2. Newark Police Department operates under a DOJ consent decree due to excessive and repeat racial profiling police tactics during his tenure (to be fair they existed prior to him being mayor).
3. Newark has structural property tax issues due to long term tax abatements that his administration gave away like candy.
4. Newark Public Schools were under state control for 20 years. Booker cooperated with Christie, the state education commissioner, and the district superintendent to convert 40% of the schools to charter-closing neighborhood schools.
5. The Newark Watershed scandal https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2016/01/newark-watershed-corruption-staggering-even-to-jaded-observers-029688
Thank you for your insight! I'm probably going to knock him off my short list, based on what you said. I like his platform, but can he make it happen? It's one of the reasons why I'm not that excited about Warren. Her platform falls in line with what I'd like to see in the post-Trump era, but it seems like she's promising too much. If she can't deliver, specially on items that disproportionately affect Millennials (affordable housiung, college debt) she'll be a one-term president.

Joe Biden? Probably the best candidate out there if we're just looking at the ability to beat trump, but jt seems like he just wants to restore normalcy. I'm not for an AOC-style radical change platform, but I'd like to see a bit more happen than just the equivalent of Obama's third term.

Here's what I'm looking for:
  • Single payer healthcare (federal or state).
  • Control of medication costs.
  • Address and start to fix historic racial and regional economic inequalities, in a race-neutral way (baby bonds, home equity insurance, prison reform, etc.), rather than cash reparations to African-Americans.
  • Reasonable gun control (my ideal - use a licensing/registration scheme similar to driver licensing and vehicle ownership).
  • No "woke" posturing.
  • Consider working class people, regardless of race or gender, just as deserving of help as other traditionally underrepresented groups.
  • Mitigate student debt and the high cost of higher education.
  • Expand training in the skilled trades at the local level (community colleges, not shady for-profit colleges).
  • Address availability of affordable housing, yet avoid subprime lending.
  • Comprehensive infrastructure program.
  • Rejoin the Paris Agreement.
  • Continued research and development of solar energy and other forms of renewable energy, while maintaining energy independence.
  • Bolster the middle class, and elevate the lower middle class.
  • A realistic job retraining and relocation program for those in dying industries (coal mining, etc) and regions (small towns in Appalachia, the Great Plains states, parts of the Rust Belt, etc..).
  • Higher taxes for high income households.
  • Value-added tax (one can dream, right?)
  • Immigration reform -- point-based system similar to Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, while maintaining the Green Card lottery, and seasonal worker permits.
  • Expand banking services to low income communities.
  • Strong but humane border security. (We have the same right to defend the border as any other nation.)
  • Continued support of same-sex marriage.
 

AG74683

Cyburbian
Messages
6,147
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27
As someone who lives in Newark and had significant business with the city during Booker's tenure, I can tell you he is a poser and that Newark was a convenient stepping stool to whatever was next for him. Former Gov. Christie headed him off at the pass during his second term re-election bid courtesy of Sen. "Uncle Frank" Lautenberg kicking the bucket right on cue which resulted Christie nominating him to fulfill the unexpired term. Booker should NEVER be in charge of running anything ever again.

1. Racial economic inequality did not improve in Newark.
2. Newark Police Department operates under a DOJ consent decree due to excessive and repeat racial profiling police tactics during his tenure (to be fair they existed prior to him being mayor).
3. Newark has structural property tax issues due to long term tax abatements that his administration gave away like candy.
4. Newark Public Schools were under state control for 20 years. Booker cooperated with Christie, the state education commissioner, and the district superintendent to convert 40% of the schools to charter-closing neighborhood schools.
5. The Newark Watershed scandal https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2016/01/newark-watershed-corruption-staggering-even-to-jaded-observers-029688
I knew there was something I just didn't like about him but I couldn't put my finger on it. He just seemed "off" somehow, like a used car salesman. Thanks for posting this, it's nice to hear some first hand knowledge.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
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19,461
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As someone who lives in Newark and had significant business with the city during Booker's tenure, I can tell you he is a poser and that Newark was a convenient stepping stool to whatever was next for him. Former Gov. Christie headed him off at the pass during his second term re-election bid courtesy of Sen. "Uncle Frank" Lautenberg kicking the bucket right on cue which resulted Christie nominating him to fulfill the unexpired term. Booker should NEVER be in charge of running anything ever again.

1. Racial economic inequality did not improve in Newark.
2. Newark Police Department operates under a DOJ consent decree due to excessive and repeat racial profiling police tactics during his tenure (to be fair they existed prior to him being mayor).
3. Newark has structural property tax issues due to long term tax abatements that his administration gave away like candy.
4. Newark Public Schools were under state control for 20 years. Booker cooperated with Christie, the state education commissioner, and the district superintendent to convert 40% of the schools to charter-closing neighborhood schools.
5. The Newark Watershed scandal https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2016/01/newark-watershed-corruption-staggering-even-to-jaded-observers-029688
How many of these situations improved in places like Baltimore or Chicago? I think it is just a sign that the system is broken not that the candidate is an R or a D.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
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19,461
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44
I am sure that there are some people who will get worked up on both sides of this issue, but I think it is a conversation worth having. Also as a disclaimer, I have not been Catholic for a few years. I know that at the Baptist Church that I attend, the pastor would not deny anyone communion and while he would not agree with gay marriage, he would still love and respect that person the same as any other parishioner.

https://www.woodtv.com/news/grand-rapids/egr-priest-denies-communion-to-gay-judge/
EAST GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (WOOD) — Judge Sara Smolenski, chief judge of the Kent County District Court, has been denied Communion at the church where she has been a parishioner for more than six decades because she is married to a woman.
What are your thoughts on this? Do you think that the Catholic Priest is in the wrong or not?
 

Planit

Cyburbian
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11,937
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38
https://www.woodtv.com/news/grand-rapids/egr-priest-denies-communion-to-gay-judge/

What are your thoughts on this? Do you think that the Catholic Priest is in the wrong or not?

My belief is that it was wrong.

However I will say the issue of gay marriage & being permitted to partake in communion is something that has split religions. Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists & Lutheran denominations &/or congregations have split into different groups due directly to this issue. That's why there's a PC-USA & PCA associations for Presbys for example (& others can chime in about the Lutherans or Baptist splits.

You know, I wouldn't join a church that contradicts my views beliefs (snake handlers, no thanks), but its their view & belief. Sadly, the judge should find a new church that aligns more with her views, pray that those at this church find understanding & compassion, then be done with it.
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
9,782
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34
I am sure that there are some people who will get worked up on both sides of this issue, but I think it is a conversation worth having. Also as a disclaimer, I have not been Catholic for a few years. I know that at the Baptist Church that I attend, the pastor would not deny anyone communion and while he would not agree with gay marriage, he would still love and respect that person the same as any other parishioner.

https://www.woodtv.com/news/grand-rapids/egr-priest-denies-communion-to-gay-judge/


What are your thoughts on this? Do you think that the Catholic Priest is in the wrong or not?
I'm not a Catholic but I believe the Pope's current doctrine is that communion should be for everybody who is willing to receive it, so it sounds like the priest is wrong on that account. If the same Catholic priest had been giving her communion in the past, then yes, I think he's in the wrong again. Does he deny communion to divorced/remarried parishioners? Does he deny communion to those who have had children outside of marriage?

We're not a big church going family but it's articles like this one that make me wonder why anybody would want to be so involved with an organization that discriminates so openly.
 

Gedunker

Moderating
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Either Conan is a boy, or she's a girl. It isn'te that complicated when there's only two choices.

(She sure looked like a girl to me, but I'm no veterinarian.)
 

Maister

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I am sure that there are some people who will get worked up on both sides of this issue, but I think it is a conversation worth having. Also as a disclaimer, I have not been Catholic for a few years. I know that at the Baptist Church that I attend, the pastor would not deny anyone communion and while he would not agree with gay marriage, he would still love and respect that person the same as any other parishioner.

https://www.woodtv.com/news/grand-rapids/egr-priest-denies-communion-to-gay-judge/


What are your thoughts on this? Do you think that the Catholic Priest is in the wrong or not?
I'm not a Catholic but I believe the Pope's current doctrine is that communion should be for everybody who is willing to receive it, so it sounds like the priest is wrong on that account. If the same Catholic priest had been giving her communion in the past, then yes, I think he's in the wrong again. Does he deny communion to divorced/remarried parishioners? Does he deny communion to those who have had children outside of marriage?

We're not a big church going family but it's articles like this one that make me wonder why anybody would want to be so involved with an organization that discriminates so openly.
My belief is that it was wrong.

However I will say the issue of gay marriage & being permitted to partake in communion is something that has split religions. Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists & Lutheran denominations &/or congregations have split into different groups due directly to this issue. That's why there's a PC-USA & PCA associations for Presbys for example (& others can chime in about the Lutherans or Baptist splits.

You know, I wouldn't join a church that contradicts my views beliefs (snake handlers, no thanks), but its their view & belief. Sadly, the judge should find a new church that aligns more with her views, pray that those at this church find understanding & compassion, then be done with it.
Moderator note:

Posting here about a church policy on communion? Reminder: this is the neverending politics thread, not the neverending religious debate thread. You're free to start a new thread if you like.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
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19,461
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Apprently George Washington was very clear about the connection of Thanksgiving to God and that the purpose of the day was to give thanks to God.

I don’t praise Trump for much, but I applaud him for reinserting the reference to God in his annual Thanksgiving Day Proclamation.
 
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JNA

Cyburbian Plus
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Newark Sues New York City, Mayor Bill de Blasio Over Homeless Relocation Program

The good ole make it somebody else's problem -

to halt its controversial Special One-Time Assistance program that allegedly relocates homeless individuals from New York City to live in often inhabitable conditions – including dilapidated and vermin-infested residences in Newark.

relocates New York City homeless families across the country with a full year’s worth of rent paid up front. In most cases, according to Newark’s complaint, the receiving city is unaware that SOTA recipients are being relocated from New York City.
 

michaelskis

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44
With Bloomberg in the race now, who do you think will get the nomination, and if it is Bloomberg, do you think he could beat Trump?

Also, one more down... Kamala Harris is out.
 

AG74683

Cyburbian
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27
With Bloomberg in the race now, who do you think will get the nomination, and if it is Bloomberg, do you think he could beat Trump?

Also, one more down... Kamala Harris is out.
It's always been Biden. No one else stands a chance. That's largely why I haven't bothered keeping track of these debates. They are entirely irrelevant.
 
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