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The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
19,908
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49
By now, many of you have heard of the shooting at a church in Texas that could have become a mass shooting if it was not for a well trained person who was able to legally carry a weapon into the church.

This is an example of where concealed carry and training can work very well together. The guy who started the situation, was not legally permitted to have a weapon... but he did anyways.
 

Whose Yur Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
11,219
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37
We've been somewhat busy today. I ended up with a somewhat protracted discussion with someone regarding a zoning verification letter
 

AG74683

Cyburbian
Messages
6,899
Points
34
By now, many of you have heard of the shooting at a church in Texas that could have become a mass shooting if it was not for a well trained person who was able to legally carry a weapon into the church.

This is an example of where concealed carry and training can work very well together. The guy who started the situation, was not legally permitted to have a weapon... but he did anyways.
Sometimes I wonder if mandatory firearms training might not be the worst idea. I mean it certainly wouldn't solve mass shootings, but it would at least serve to adequately train people on how to use firearms. I think it's absurd that someone who has never shot a gun before can go in and get one. You can't legally drive a car without a license, so why should owning a gun be any different?
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
19,908
Points
49
Sometimes I wonder if mandatory firearms training might not be the worst idea. I mean it certainly wouldn't solve mass shootings, but it would at least serve to adequately train people on how to use firearms. I think it's absurd that someone who has never shot a gun before can go in and get one. You can't legally drive a car without a license, so why should owning a gun be any different?
Personally, I believe that if you are to carry a gun in public, you should have on going training on how to use it. I think it should be strongly encouraged for anyone who owns a gun, but an absolute and ongoing requirement for anyone with a concealed permit.
 

luckless pedestrian

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49
Personally, I believe that if you are to carry a gun in public, you should have on going training on how to use it. I think it should be strongly encouraged for anyone who owns a gun, but an absolute and ongoing requirement for anyone with a concealed permit.
yes mandatory gun training to own a gun and a refresher every x number of year (3 to 5)
 

AG74683

Cyburbian
Messages
6,899
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34
Analogous to the Bin Laden raid/kill in Pakistan under the Obama Administration?
That one was different IMO. Bin Laden was a known enemy combatant and head of an organization we were/are at war with. Bin Laden was also a known target to the general public at large and seen by most of Americans as a dire threat. Pakistan had no open allegiance to Bin Laden if I recall correctly.

Soleimani is different. He's not well known outside of those with a significant amount of political knowledge. Yes, the IRGC is designated as a terrorist organization by the United States, but unlike Al Qaeda, that opinion is only shared by Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. The IRGC is completely backed by the Iranian government and is a member of the Iranian armed forces. It's an attack on a military asset by what amounts to a hostile force. I don't think people felt the same about Bin Laden to be sure.

All that said, I think he was absolutely a target that needed to be eliminated. It was pretty clear that Soleimani was instrumental in the attacks on American and other international assets using proxy paramilitary forces (similar to us supporting the Contras). I think it's one of those bad/bad situations where no one will win. The question is whether Iran will actually act on it. I think it unlikely we will see any sort of retaliation for it.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
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19,908
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49
He was a terrorist and needed to be taken out:


Just a few other thoughts... it makes me want to puke when I hear Hollywood Liberals defend this guy and apologize for the US taking out a terrorist.
 

Hink

OH....IO
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48
He was a terrorist and needed to be taken out:


Just a few other thoughts... it makes me want to puke when I hear Hollywood Liberals defend this guy and apologize for the US taking out a terrorist.
The difference between a terrorist and a leader of a country who harbors terrorists is a fine line. Bin Laden was not part of an organized government. Soleimani was. You can believe he was a terrorist, but he was a different type of one.

Personally, the problem I have with it, isn't that he was a good guy, or shouldn't have been targeted, it is that our President unilaterally decided that he had to go. He didn't declare war on Iran. He didn't ask Congress for approval. He just assassinated the second in command of a foreign country.

I don't think anyone should be apologizing for this guy. But I also think this just shows again that Trump does not understand any foreign policy. He has now created a stronger hatred of the US from Iran and it looks like Iraq. This isn't going to solve the middle east problem. This is going to put us into either a war, or at least a prolonged fight again (still?).

People who compare this to Bin Laden are blatantly trying to ignore the facts of the Bin Laden mission.
 

Gedunker

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38
I don't take a word Trump or anyone of his administration says at face value. Period.
I believe this was an impetuous act, taken without regard for consequences, and absolutely without a thought of some strategy.
The follow-up threat of destroying cultural sites is disgusting and below everything America once stood for.
Trump and his Republican enablers are despicable.
 

Hink

OH....IO
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I don't take a word Trump or anyone of his administration says at face value. Period.
I believe this was an impetuous act, taken without regard for consequences, and absolutely without a thought of some strategy.
The follow-up threat of destroying cultural sites is disgusting and below everything America once stood for.
Trump and his Republican enablers are despicable.
The cultural threat would be a crime if Trump went through with it. Although I truly believe he doesn't care, I still don't think he wants war criminal on his resume along with Impeached President.
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
25,497
Points
57
From IT Dept -

Due to the increasing tensions in the Middle East, the possibility of cyber-attacks against governmental entities is very high. It is important that everyone remains vigilant to this threat.
Please be careful when opening emails and/or attachments from unknown senders, or when receiving unexpected messages or attachments from what appear to be legitimate senders.

When in doubt please err on the side of caution and either delete the message, use the Phish Alert icon, or contact the Help Desk for assistance.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
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19,908
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49
That's a bit much, mskis. I haven't heard anyone in the US defending him.
This was in response to Rose McGowan's comments. I guess she was not 'defending him' as much as apologizing that we took him out.

The difference between a terrorist and a leader of a country who harbors terrorists is a fine line. Bin Laden was not part of an organized government. Soleimani was. You can believe he was a terrorist, but he was a different type of one.

Personally, the problem I have with it, isn't that he was a good guy, or shouldn't have been targeted, it is that our President unilaterally decided that he had to go. He didn't declare war on Iran. He didn't ask Congress for approval. He just assassinated the second in command of a foreign country.

I don't think anyone should be apologizing for this guy. But I also think this just shows again that Trump does not understand any foreign policy. He has now created a stronger hatred of the US from Iran and it looks like Iraq. This isn't going to solve the middle east problem. This is going to put us into either a war, or at least a prolonged fight again (still?).

People who compare this to Bin Laden are blatantly trying to ignore the facts of the Bin Laden mission.
I don't think one's position in a political structure defines what a terrorist is or is not. One of the definitions state that a Terrorist is a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. I don't think he was as bad as Bin Laden but let me ask you this... if we could have taken out Bin Laden in 2000, should we have? Because all indications are this is the trajectory that Solemani was going, regardless of position in a government.

Just imagine if Kim Jong Un started doing what he has threaten to terrorize other countries... would he be called a terrorist?

The cultural threat would be a crime if Trump went through with it. Although I truly believe he doesn't care, I still don't think he wants war criminal on his resume along with Impeached President.
I 100% agree. There are thresholds to decency and I would hope that this would be even too low for Trump.
 

Hink

OH....IO
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I don't think one's position in a political structure defines what a terrorist is or is not. One of the definitions state that a Terrorist is a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. I don't think he was as bad as Bin Laden but let me ask you this... if we could have taken out Bin Laden in 2000, should we have? Because all indications are this is the trajectory that Solemani was going, regardless of position in a government.

Just imagine if Kim Jong Un started doing what he has threaten to terrorize other countries... would he be called a terrorist?
Yes, if you are in a political structure it is different. Maybe not if we weren't a western democratic government, but we are. The FBI states: International terrorism: Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups who are inspired by, or associated with, designated foreign terrorist organizations or nations (state-sponsored). The Trump Administration did declare the IRGC as a foreign terrorist group in April 2019 so you can argue that they determined he was a terrorist.

No, Kim would be the leader of country that we would likely be at war with. It is a different discussion. As we have used terrorist, and terrorism, in the last 20 years, it has generally been used to define a group that does not have international power or is recognized by the international community. Bin Laden was part of al-Qaeda. That isn't a government. That is an organization that was deemed to be a terrorist group. I mean we can say the same thing about about ISIS, Al-Shabaab, or Boka Haram. The Taliban is a bit tougher, as they are playing a role in making Afganistans government more stable.

Killing the leader of a country we are at war with is more clear cut. We declared war on you because ostensibly you did something we thought was bad. We clearly gave you the chance to back down, you likely didn't, and we went to war. War is terrible, but the rules are less muddy.
 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
14,516
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51
Of course we are already doing the spin to make this election worthy. He's out there yelling about Iran not having nukes which we all remember was one of his big original I hate Obama and his deal with Iran promises.
 

kjel

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12,384
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39
The difference between a terrorist and a leader of a country who harbors terrorists is a fine line. Bin Laden was not part of an organized government. Soleimani was. You can believe he was a terrorist, but he was a different type of one.

Personally, the problem I have with it, isn't that he was a good guy, or shouldn't have been targeted, it is that our President unilaterally decided that he had to go. He didn't declare war on Iran. He didn't ask Congress for approval. He just assassinated the second in command of a foreign country.

I don't think anyone should be apologizing for this guy. But I also think this just shows again that Trump does not understand any foreign policy. He has now created a stronger hatred of the US from Iran and it looks like Iraq. This isn't going to solve the middle east problem. This is going to put us into either a war, or at least a prolonged fight again (still?).

People who compare this to Bin Laden are blatantly trying to ignore the facts of the Bin Laden mission.
Soleimani was a POS, I think there isn't much disagreement on that. That's where the similarities end with bin Laden. Middle Eastern politics are complicated on a good day. Iranian politics are way more complicated than Middle Eastern politics. I think Cheetolini erred with this assassination. He's playing marbles against a Grand Champion Chess Wizard here. This will NOT end well at all and likely has done irreparable harm to any hope of normalizing Iran-Western relationships for the foreseeable future.

I view this as just the latest in a long line of US interference. A great book to read is "All the Shah's Men" by Stephen Kinzer published in 2003. The context of past misdeeds of the US in Iran helps bring understanding to what is happening now.
 

gtpeach

Cyburbian
Messages
2,037
Points
20

First of all, seriously? Twitter is definitely not the appropriate medium to be conveying this type of information.

Also, what is the consequence if the President does violate the War Powers Act? It would still be up to Congress to hold him accountable, right? This is ridiculous.
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
12,722
Points
50
Fox News Irony

Well that didn't take long. Fox personalities are now saying that we should trust our intelligence members with this recent turn of events. Seems just like a few weeks ago they were condemning the same intelligence community as being part of the 'deep state' trying to oust tRump, and been doing it for the last 3 years.
 

Maister

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Fox personalities are now saying that we should trust our intelligence members with this recent turn of events. Seems just like a few weeks ago they were condemning the same intelligence community as being part of the 'deep state' trying to oust tRump, and been doing it for the last 3 years.
Can't have it both ways. Either the intelligence community is to be trusted or they're not.
 

DVD

Cyburbian
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14,516
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51
I'm surprised the robot heads over at Fox haven't exploded yet. That's some good conflict avoidance/spin programming.
 

AG74683

Cyburbian
Messages
6,899
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34
I think it unlikely we will see any sort of retaliation for it.
Ooops, I was wrong. It doesn't sound like a massive attack though. There's been no news on any fatalities from the attack, but it sounds like maybe it was just more of a show of force, designed specifically to avoid deaths. Now the question is if Cheeto in Chief responds or decides to let it go and cool things off.

A Ukrainian Airlines 737 crashed last night. Unclear what the cause was, but video of it shows the plan on fire as it fell back to earth. Unlikely it was a simple "mechanical failure", I suspect it was shot down. By whom....who knows.
 
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Planit

Cyburbian
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12,722
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50
Rumor is now that the airliner hit a drone.

They found the black boxes so we'll find out more.
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
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13,643
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53
I just don't trust anything that way anymore. Not after the Malaysian air flight got shot down.
As Gedunker said up thread, I don't believe or trust anything said by the Trump Administration.

I watched the Pompeo interview on Face The Nation (CBS) this past Sunday and was royally pissed at Pompeo's 'not answers' and general air of (false) righteousness.

Their incompetence, hypocrisy and narcissism has completely undermined any credibility they may have had at the beginning.
 
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michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
19,908
Points
49
A Ukrainian Airlines 737 crashed last night. Unclear what the cause was, but video of it shows the plan on fire as it fell back to earth. Unlikely it was a simple "mechanical failure", I suspect it was shot down. By whom....who knows.
So now it comes out that the airline was shot down by Iran and they called it mechanical failure to hide the fact that they are woefully under equipped to attack the US.

One of my kids said that another kid at school was super worried that they would bomb his house thanks mostly to his liberal parents feeding ideas that the US is defenseless and that Iran has a superior military. I absolutely think they could cause serious damage in the middle east, but I don't think they have the capability to bring the fight to our door step.

I hope that this is the end the the attacks. We took out their general, they threw rocks, we laughed and went about our business.
 

AG74683

Cyburbian
Messages
6,899
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34
So now it comes out that the airline was shot down by Iran and they called it mechanical failure to hide the fact that they are woefully under equipped to attack the US.

One of my kids said that another kid at school was super worried that they would bomb his house thanks mostly to his liberal parents feeding ideas that the US is defenseless and that Iran has a superior military. I absolutely think they could cause serious damage in the middle east, but I don't think they have the capability to bring the fight to our door step.

I hope that this is the end the the attacks. We took out their general, they threw rocks, we laughed and went about our business.
Sounds like it actually may have been a failure of the IFF on the plane, where it was either off or showing as foe which is why the Iranian anti-aircraft weaponry keyed in on the plane.

I do believe that Iran could bring the fight to the US. I fully believe they have sleeper cells ready to attack from within. I doubt it will be on a 9/11 scale. It will be similar to what we've seen in Europe (cars as weapons, shootings, etc.). Iran is pretty infamous for their use of proxies, hence why Soleimani was taken out.

It's weird to say, but I think Iran was 100% justified in their attack.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
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19,908
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49
So, let me get this correct....

The US kills a terrorist and people lose their freaking minds, but when that Terrorist's country shoots down a commercial airliner full of Canadians it's crickets?
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
12,722
Points
50
So, let me get this correct....

The US kills a terrorist and people lose their freaking minds, but when that Terrorist's country shoots down a commercial airliner full of Canadians it's crickets?

Not exactly. Lots of news about the "mechanical failure" & no emergency radio & black box coverup & flash in the sky...all pointing fingers at Iran who have now admitted it. Lots of tension over there now too with continued protests getting news.
 

Hink

OH....IO
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So, let me get this correct....

The US kills a terrorist and people lose their freaking minds, but when that Terrorist's country shoots down a commercial airliner full of Canadians it's crickets?
You really need to put "terrorist" in quotations.

I also don't believe that it is crickets. Every news agency is talking about it. I mean NPR / CNN / MSNBC all did. FoxNews did a story on how Democrats aren't angry enough about it. Maybe that is what you read?
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
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49
You really need to put "terrorist" in quotations.

I also don't believe that it is crickets. Every news agency is talking about it. I mean NPR / CNN / MSNBC all did. FoxNews did a story on how Democrats aren't angry enough about it. Maybe that is what you read?
It was more the response from the local news that get's their world/national stuff from the big networks that are available by antenna (ABC, CBS, NBC). Our Fox Broadcasting does not have news. And given that I don't have cable and I don't listen to NPR, I guess my exposure to bias new networks is limited.
 

mendelman

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Haven't researched this yet, but wonder if Trump is impeached in, say, March 2020, can he still run for President in the election and possibly be elected anyways?

This is a thought exercise, but interesting to understand. Trump seems to be the type of personality that would do something like this.
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
10,278
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43
Haven't researched this yet, but wonder if Trump is impeached in, say, March 2020, can he still run for President in the election and possibly be elected anyways?

This is a thought exercise, but interesting to understand. Trump seems to be the type of personality that would do something like this.
Well, he's already been impeached, but I know what you are getting at. ;)

My understanding of Article I, Section 3 is that punishment from impeachment is removal from office and disqualification from holding that office in the future but if the Senate were to vote to convict they could write their judgement to be anything upto and including that. So I guess theoretically, they could vote to remove but not disqualify or even disqualify from running in November but not actually removing now.

In any case, if he were to be convicted and removed (which I don't really see happening), I would think the punishment from the Senate would be simply removed now and disqualified in the future. I don't think they would try to get all cute with the outcome because that would just invite another court battle that I don't think anybody wants, especially in an election year. But remember, all of that speculation is moot if he's never actually convicted anyway.
 

AG74683

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34
Haven't researched this yet, but wonder if Trump is impeached in, say, March 2020, can he still run for President in the election and possibly be elected anyways?

This is a thought exercise, but interesting to understand. Trump seems to be the type of personality that would do something like this.
I mean he's already been impeached. Do you mean if he's actually removed from office?
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
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I mean he's already been impeached. Do you mean if he's actually removed from office?
Thanks. Yes, actually removed.

I know if technically permitted, he's likely to get prosecuted in NY State the second he's not President.

In any case, if he were to be convicted and removed (which I don't really see happening).
Everyone also knew he wouldn't be elected in 2016, so....
 
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michaelskis

Cyburbian
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19,908
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49
Here is an interesting paradox... what happens if in October he is convicted by the Senate, he is no longer eligible to become President? That is not enough time for the GOP to do anything to get someone else on the ballot.
 

AG74683

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34
Thanks. Yes, actually removed.
I know if technically permitted, he's likely to get prosecuted in NY State the second he's not President.
Everyone also knew he wouldn't be elected in 2016, so....
This is probably where the confusion sets in that "if he's impeached/not impeached he gets 4 more years since the others won't count". No lie, I literally heard someone say that, and he was dead serious.

That said, if he IS removed from office, I doubt that he ever gets tried by anyone outside of the Senate for anything. He'll immediately be pardoned by Pence.
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
25,497
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57
Teh Donald said this -

But how about the shower? You go into a shower, and I have this beautiful head of hair. I need a lot of water. You go into the shower, right? You turn on the water. Drip, drip, drip. I call the guy, something wrong with this? No, sir. It's just the restrictor. So you're in there five times longer than you're supposed to be. You use probably more water. And it's a very unpleasant experience. Right? So we're getting rid of the restrictors, you're going to have full shower flow. You'll see.

Any Cyburbian have a "beautiful head of hair" like Teh Donald ?
 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
14,516
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51
Ursus has beautiful hair. I'm sure he's all for high pressure showers, but if you don't have pressure I think it's a bigger issue than the restrictor.
 

Veloise

Cyburbian
Messages
5,740
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32
A state senator made a "joke" to a reporter.

I asked Lucido for a moment to address the issue at hand, and he told me he would catch up with me after he was finished honoring the group of students.
As I turned to walk away, he asked, “You’ve heard of De La Salle, right?”
I told him I hadn’t.
“It’s an all boys’ school,” he told me.“You should hang around! You could have a lot of fun with these boys, or they could have a lot of fun with you.”
The teenagers burst into an Old Boys’ Network-type of laughter, and I walked away knowing that I had been the punchline of their “locker room” talk.
Except it wasn’t the locker room; it was the Senate chamber. And this isn’t high school. It’s my career.
I’m 22 years old and one of the youngest current Capitol reporters. The senator’s insinuating comments about the “fun” I might have with a group of teenage boys was belittling and it came from a place of power.

And once again my fair state :mi: is getting national attention, thanks to this clod.

WaPo!

NYT!

National column

CBS
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
19,908
Points
49
A state senator made a "joke" to a reporter.

I asked Lucido for a moment to address the issue at hand, and he told me he would catch up with me after he was finished honoring the group of students.
As I turned to walk away, he asked, “You’ve heard of De La Salle, right?”
I told him I hadn’t.
“It’s an all boys’ school,” he told me.“You should hang around! You could have a lot of fun with these boys, or they could have a lot of fun with you.”
The teenagers burst into an Old Boys’ Network-type of laughter, and I walked away knowing that I had been the punchline of their “locker room” talk.
Except it wasn’t the locker room; it was the Senate chamber. And this isn’t high school. It’s my career.
I’m 22 years old and one of the youngest current Capitol reporters. The senator’s insinuating comments about the “fun” I might have with a group of teenage boys was belittling and it came from a place of power.
Sounds like the the majority leader (a republican) is calling for an investigation and is speaking out saying that this type of harassment is not acceptable.
 

AG74683

Cyburbian
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6,899
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34
I don't really get the "joke" there. Is it a gay joke, or an age joke? Or a little of both?
 
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