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The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

AG74683

Cyburbian
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The Republican Party no longer exists. It just hasn't formally changed names. It is completely unrecognizable from what it was less than 20 years ago.
Let's remember that Richard Nixon was a Republican. Watergate (and the fact that he was a giant asshole) aside, he did accomplish a list of positive things, things today's Republicans would cringe at. He ended the draft, founded the EPA, dedicated 100m to fighting cancer (which later led to the creation of national cancer centers), and gave Native Americans rights to tribal self-determination and returned their sacred lands. These are all issues that Republicans now wouldn't endorse or really even care about. They actively seek to de-regulate the EPA, have no interest in giving Americans money for anything related to improving their health, and could give a rats ass about Native Americans.
 

Veloise

Cyburbian
Messages
5,745
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32
I've been reviewing signs all morning with federal approval. We limit constitutional rights all the time. We limit occupancy in building. We limit the age of who can go in certain businesses. We issue permits for parades and gatherings outside. I've kicked a church meeting out of a home when they started to get so crowded no one could get down the residential street. As long as you can justify the health, safety or public welfare/health aspect, I think the mayors and governors are in the clear. There will be lawsuits and they might go on for a while, but I think we have some of the clearest justification for temporarily limiting rights as anyone ever has.
The cartoonist apparently saw some of the coverage about the political rally disguised as a protest that took place in my fair state's capital on Wednesday.
I took the liberty of pasting in a few of the real signs that appeared.
 

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AG74683

Cyburbian
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Republicans 2 months ago: Adamantly pro-life and staunchly "law and order", against any "free money" from the government for any purpose (THAT'S SOCIALISM Y'ALL!!)

Current Republicans: "MY BODY, MY CHOICE (TO WORK)!!!", actively protesting current law and order, very excited for their stimulus checks - IE free money from the government, (TRUMP HAS OUR BACK!!).

You can't make this stuff up.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
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19,915
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49
Ok... I am getting mixed information from various sites. There are folks that are saying that the Stimulus Checks are not 'free money' from the government, but actually an advance on next year's federal tax refund. (i.e. If you got $3,400 stimulus check, they will deduct $3,400 from our refunds next year). But if next spring we are owed less than what we were paid as part of the stimulus check, we will not need to pay pay it back.

Can anyone confirm if any of this is true?
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
12,736
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50
Republicans 2 months ago: Adamantly pro-life and staunchly "law and order", against any "free money" from the government for any purpose (THAT'S SOCIALISM Y'ALL!!)

Current Republicans: "MY BODY, MY CHOICE (TO WORK)!!!", actively protesting current law and order, very excited for their stimulus checks - IE free money from the government, (TRUMP HAS OUR BACK!!).

You can't make this stuff up.

Seems to be the Republican way - just ask Moscow Mitch which way the wind is blowing...
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
10,288
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43
Ok... I am getting mixed information from various sites. There are folks that are saying that the Stimulus Checks are not 'free money' from the government, but actually an advance on next year's federal tax refund. (i.e. If you got $3,400 stimulus check, they will deduct $3,400 from our refunds next year). But if next spring we are owed less than what we were paid as part of the stimulus check, we will not need to pay pay it back.

Can anyone confirm if any of this is true?
I asked my best friend about this. He is a CPA and tax attorney and works for the IRS (though not on this type of subject specifically, but I still consider him to be pretty knowledgeable about this kind of stuff).

I am probably overly simplifying his explanation (we were also trying to play MarioKart and Zooming) but it came down to yes, it is a $3,400 credit towards next year's standard deduction (or $1,200 per individual and $500 per child) but there is a separate clause written into the legislation that zeros out that credit. They used the IRS to distribute the funds because it would be the quickest way to get the funds to everybody who qualifies but generally the IRS isn't legally able to just send out money that isn't a credit or isn't a refund. The way the legislation is written, it should not impact your taxes at the end of the year.

Of course it's still not "free money" as we are paying taxes so it is in effect still our money.
 

AG74683

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34
Ok... I am getting mixed information from various sites. There are folks that are saying that the Stimulus Checks are not 'free money' from the government, but actually an advance on next year's federal tax refund. (i.e. If you got $3,400 stimulus check, they will deduct $3,400 from our refunds next year). But if next spring we are owed less than what we were paid as part of the stimulus check, we will not need to pay pay it back.

Can anyone confirm if any of this is true?
My dad (CFO, not CPA) said at the end of the day it will NOT affect next years return, and it will not change anything on next years taxes. It is a tax credit, which does not need to be repaid (similar to the earned income tax credit or child tax credit). It is not income, and you do not owe taxes on it. He was very impressed with the way Congress developed it.
 

MD Planner

Cyburbian
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2,292
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33
It will be a wash on next year's (2020) tax return. You don't have to worry about it impacting a future refund or what you may owe.
 

Veloise

Cyburbian
Messages
5,745
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32
The cartoonist apparently saw some of the coverage about the political rally disguised as a protest that took place in my fair state's capital on Wednesday.
I took the liberty of pasting in a few of the real signs that appeared.
Made by a professional artist in NJ. He came to town to paint a mural for ArtPrize several years ago, and I occasionally send him a cityscape civic booster image that includes it.
 

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AG74683

Cyburbian
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6,919
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34
I wonder how long it will take until Trump's inappropriate positive Tweet comes through regarding Kim Jong Un...

"Heard that Kim Jong Un is really under the weather. Great leader! Great man! We have a great relationship, the best! Get well soon, your people need you!!"
 

Dan

Dear Leader
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Anyone else tuning out the President during this Corona Virus update press conferences? What does judge recess appointments have to do with the virus?
CNN now cuts away whenever Trump goes off on a tangent. A couple of times, they started late. I think they recognize it's jut the Trump Show, and there's really very little of substance. Fox airs the press "briefings" in full because it's the Dear Leader, and MSNBC shows it because their viewers don't want to miss what they see as a daily trainwreck. A Trump daily press briefing is like the liberal version of NASCAR -- you watch it for the crashes.

You could say the same thing about Andrew Cuomo, but he's been a steady voice of reason and bipartisan unity throughout the crisis.

I really feel bad for the Never Trumper Republicans. As a social-Democrat-but-not-socialist liberal who's not dogmatic or woke, I get it. There's the self-censorship, and a sense of being an outsider looking in -- there's no place for you on the political spectrum.
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
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25,513
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57
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

I have instructed the United States Navy to shoot down and destroy any and all Iranian gunboats if they harass our ships at sea.
leading to a Gulf of Tonkin like incident ?
or
shoot first ask question later ?
 

Planit

Cyburbian
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12,736
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50
One story line for a week.

tRump: I have absolute power!
People: No you don't, double check the constitution.
tRump: Governors its all on you.
tRump: But, I'll sic AG Barr's DOJ on you if you go too far.
 

Hink

OH....IO
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Just looking at polling, Biden is crushing in Pennsylvania, as well as Michigan and Wisconsin. He is also looking really strong in Arizona and Florida.

Even if he doesn't win North Carolina (which he certainly could do), the math for Biden looks much stronger than Trump right now. Trump would have to pull Pennsylvania back to even have a chance. If he can't win Florida it is all over for him.
 

MD Planner

Cyburbian
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33
I think his VP choice has to be really strong. He can't be forced to choose someone that turns a lot of people off. That process is going to be fascinating.
 

Hink

OH....IO
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I think his VP choice has to be really strong. He can't be forced to choose someone that turns a lot of people off. That process is going to be fascinating.
I agree. The question will be when will he make that announcement. Most of the time that announcement is made in the August / September timeframe to try and get some news after the convention. Since there really is no news, I wonder if he will do that early to try and pull in more people earlier?

This entire cycle has so many twists and turns that I think the whole thing will be fascinating.
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
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I think his VP choice has to be really strong. He can't be forced to choose someone that turns a lot of people off. That process is going to be fascinating.
Klobuchar.

I think she has the broad based appeal that hits alot of good points for rational lefts, left of centers, middles and rational right of centers.
 
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Suburb Repairman

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I think you are correct. His cabinet starts to get more predictable after that as well... Kamala Harris as AG seems pretty obvious, for example. I think Mayor Pete is bound for a cabinet post as well... potentially HUD (I love the idea of a smaller city mayor in that role). Warren would be an interesting choice for Treasury, though I'd be intrigued by her becoming Senate Majority Leader and remaining there. Her acumen for policy planning makes me want to keep her in the legislative branch.
 

mendelman

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This entire cycle has so many twists and turns that I think the whole thing will be fascinating.
There are going to be alot of scholarly books/treatises/papers written about this cycle starting in 2022 or 2023, at least.
 

MD Planner

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The reason I brought up the VP is that Abrams has really been putting a lot out there basically saying he HAS to make a certain choice. Uh, no he doesn't. Let's face it, if McCain has someone other than Palin 2008 a few of those swing states might have broken differently. I doubt Abrams would even give Biden the 16 electoral votes in Georgia.
 

mendelman

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The reason I brought up the VP is that Abrams has really been putting a lot out there basically saying he HAS to make a certain choice. Uh, no he doesn't. Let's face it, if McCain has someone other than Palin 2008 a few of those swing states might have broken differently. I doubt Abrams would even give Biden the 16 electoral votes in Georgia.
That's why he should go with the smart, rational and capable bridge builder from the Upper Midwest to pull along the battle ground Great Lakes' states (OH, IN, WI, MN, MI, PA, etc.).
 
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AG74683

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Gretchen Whitmer has been floated for VP I believe. I say he should just go all out and ride the Obama coattail right into the White House. Michelle for VP.

Let's face it, if McCain has someone other than Palin 2008 a few of those swing states might have broken differently.
Palin was the reason I ultimately did not vote for McCain. I couldn't stomach the thought of her anywhere near the White House. With a stronger VP candidate, that election would have been closer, and if the democratic candidate was anyone other than Obama, McCain may have won.
 

mendelman

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Gretchen Whitmer has been floated for VP I believe. I say he should just go all out and ride the Obama coattail right into the White House. Michelle for VP.
She could definitely be a good option, but I think she would likely decline (privately), because she will want to maintain proper leadership in MI as the pandemic management will continue for the remainder of the year.

She'll refuse to 'abandon' the people of MI.
 

WSU MUP Student

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If he's going to pick a white lady from the Midwest, I still think it will be Whitmer and not Klobuchar. As much as I like Klobuchar, other than a few minutes after New Hampshire, she never really caught any momentum and doesn't seem to bring any particular constituent group that Biden doesn't already have a solid base with.

I think Tammy Duckworth from Iowa would be an interesting pick - a Midwestern, woman-of-color, Purple Heart recipient combat veteran pilot. I think team Trump would have a hard time knocking her with their usual ad hominem racist and misogynist attacks. Unfortunately, Iowa fills vacant senate seats by appointment from the governor and I don't think the Biden camp would want to risk losing a senate seat, especially as it's looking more possible (maybe still not likely) that the Ds might retake the senate.

If not Whitmer, I think Warren would be another logical choice: very progressive, very knowledgeable, very policy-oriented. Massachusetts fills vacancies with appointment from the governor but they also have to hold a special election with 100 days of the vacancy opening so I don't think that's really a concern. If she were on the ticket and they got elected, she could step down from the senate immediately in November forcing the R Massachusetts governor to hold their special election by mid-February. All that said, I don't think it will be Warren because many on the right are afraid of her and absolutely hate her and she would be a big factor for increased turnout to vote against that ticket, especially in a few key states that the Ds are trying to flip this time around.

Early on I thought Harris would be another logical choice but as I look back at her primary run and her performances in the debates, I don't think she'll be the pick. She was sort of all over the place and had a hard time staying on a consistent platform on key topics like health insurance, criminal justice reform, or even bussing (after her initial blow up with Biden in the first debate, she later admitted/clarified they were currently on the same page on that one).

My money is on Whitmer with Warren being a close number two.
 

mendelman

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My money is on Whitmer with Warren being a close number two.
You certainly have a closer view of the stage than me, but I don't get the feeling she'd want to abandon the state during this crisis.

And at 48, she'll only be 52 in 2024, so lots of time to build a good political resume and further develop critical executive skills, experience and track record.
 
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WSU MUP Student

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You certainly have a closer view of the stage than me, but I don't get the feeling she'd want to abandon the state during this crisis.

And at 48, she'll only be 52 in 2024, so lot's a time build a good politic resume and further develop critical executive experience and track record.
I was going to add something along the lines of agreeing with you that if the COVID-19 is still a big problem here in Michigan in the late summer/early fall and the federal government is still failing to step up, that I doubt she would accept the offer but that's so far down the road that who knows what that situation will look like at a political level or on a state-by-state basis.
 

mendelman

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I was going to add something along the lines of agreeing with you that if the COVID-19 is still a big problem here in Michigan in the late summer/early fall and the federal government is still failing to step up, that I doubt she would accept the offer but that's so far down the road that who knows what that situation will look like at a political level or on a state-by-state basis.
I'm pretty confident it will continue to be a train wreck at the Fed level, especially since Trump will have to focus on re-election more, but will refuse to not be intimately involved in the continued pandemic management for the remainder of the election process.
 

Veloise

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Today's protest is supposed to take place at the governors residence a couple miles from the capitol building.

Not sure what this guy's issue is. A substitute for the Confederate battle flag/swastika? Does he want the U.P. back?

ohio flag.jpg
 

mendelman

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Today's protest is supposed to take place at the governors residence a couple miles from the capitol building.

Not sure what this guy's issue is. A substitute for the Confederate battle flag/swastika? Does he want the U.P. back?

View attachment 48227
That's the Ohio state flag.

If anybody would want the U.P. 'back', it would be Wisconsin.

Rather inscrutable, for sure. :thinking:
 

AG74683

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I don't care for Warren at all. I generally agree with her viewpoints, but I think Warren doesn't connect with the general public very well. I know she doesn't intend to, but she comes across as pious quite often. I think she would be a disastrous pick.

Tulsi Gabbard may be another good pick. She's generally well liked, respected, and isn't currently holding any seat because of her failed 2020 run. Still, for my money, Whitmer is the choice. I totally agree that she may be unwilling to take the job because of her duty to Michigan, but I think she'd be excellent in the role.

Biden sort of pigeonholed himself when he announced his pick would absolutely be a woman though. He can't really backtrack on that now. Cuomo or Newsom would be a huge popularity boost to his campaign if he picked either of them, because both have really come out as true leaders during the COVID-19 crisis, Cuomo especially. Frankly, I don't get why he needed to make an announcement about what gender he wants the VP to be. We are long past the point where choosing a woman as a VP candidate or having one as a presidential candidate is somehow cutting edge or progressive. If anything, the fact that he made such a deal out of it shows how disconnected he is with reality. I don't think the general democratic voter gives any weight to the gender of the candidate anymore, and personally I don't think it's relevant.
 

Veloise

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That's the Ohio state flag.

If anybody would want the UP 'back', it would be Wisconsin.

Rather inscrutable, for sure. :thinking:
Bingo, and that's the Michigan capitol yesterday. These people are confused.

(Michigan acquired the U.P. in an land exchange known as the "Toledo War.")
 
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AG74683

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Michigan aquired the U.P. in an land exchange known as the "Toledo War."
Which is also where the term "Wolverines" in reference to Michiganders (Michiganians? Michiganites?) came from. Ohioans referred to them as "wolverines". At least that's the popular tale. I suppose it could also be related to Michigan being a big trading hub for wolverine pelts back in the day.
 

mendelman

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Bingo, and that's the Michigan capitol yesterday. These people are confused.

(Michigan aquired the U.P. in an land exchange known as the "Toledo War.")
'Confused' is being nice.

I'm well aware of the Toledo War history. It was a matter of giving away the U.P. from the greater Territory by the Feds. OH never had rights to the U.P. It was the Fed's right to provide as compensation during MI's statehood process.
 

Planit

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I'm pretty confident it will continue to be a train wreck at the Fed level, especially since Trump will have to focus on re-election more, but will refuse to not be intimately involved in the continued pandemic management for the remainder of the election process.

I really don't want to daily Reality Shitshow excuse for pandemic briefing he does every day to continue.
 

Suburb Repairman

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I don't care for Warren at all. I generally agree with her viewpoints, but I think Warren doesn't connect with the general public very well. I know she doesn't intend to, but she comes across as pious quite often. I think she would be a disastrous pick.

Tulsi Gabbard may be another good pick. She's generally well liked, respected, and isn't currently holding any seat because of her failed 2020 run. Still, for my money, Whitmer is the choice. I totally agree that she may be unwilling to take the job because of her duty to Michigan, but I think she'd be excellent in the role.

Biden sort of pigeonholed himself when he announced his pick would absolutely be a woman though. He can't really backtrack on that now. Cuomo or Newsom would be a huge popularity boost to his campaign if he picked either of them, because both have really come out as true leaders during the COVID-19 crisis, Cuomo especially. Frankly, I don't get why he needed to make an announcement about what gender he wants the VP to be. We are long past the point where choosing a woman as a VP candidate or having one as a presidential candidate is somehow cutting edge or progressive. If anything, the fact that he made such a deal out of it shows how disconnected he is with reality. I don't think the general democratic voter gives any weight to the gender of the candidate anymore, and personally I don't think it's relevant.
I think Biden's commitment to a woman was a condition of endorsement on Super Tuesday from a couple of candidates dropping out. It was an oddly specific commitment at this point in the campaign, meaning that it was prompted by an external influence.

Tulsi is a hard no for a long list of reasons.
 

Planit

Cyburbian
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…and now Moscow Mitch seems to think that state's should go bankrupt to take care of any budget shortfalls...



I sometimes think if this was a movie script, it wouldn't get made because its so far fetched.
 

WSU MUP Student

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I sometimes think if this was a movie script, it wouldn't get made because its so far fetched.
Right up there with the Supreme Court refusing to give Wisconsin voters who hadn't even received their absentee ballots yet an extra few days to get them and have them postmarked after the Tuesday of the primary.
 

Veloise

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Toledo War

During the summer of 1836, Congress proposed a compromise whereby Michigan gave up its claim to the strip in exchange for its statehood and about three-quarters of the Upper Peninsula. Although the northern region's mineral wealth would later become an economic asset to Michigan, at the time the compromise was considered a poor outcome for the new state, and voters in a statehood convention in September soundly rejected the proposal. But in December, the Michigan government, facing a dire financial crisis and pressure from Congress and President Andrew Jackson, called another convention (called the "Frostbitten Convention") which accepted the compromise that resolved the Toledo War.
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
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Who made that map? Ohio became a state in 1803 and Michigan in 1836. Bad map.
You need to check your state quarters collection! ;)

Michigan became a state in 1837, not 1836. I know this because I remember some cheesy tourism commercials where they had people trying to correctly pronounce "sesquicentennial" and my parents still have a commemorative 1837-1987 license plate hanging up in the garage.


Re: Nathaniel Pope's line dividing Illinois and Wisconsin, I believe it is the same latitude as 8 Mile Road which is also one of the baselines for the original survey in Michigan. I've always wondered if that had anything to do with the border between Illinois and Wisconsin or if it was just coincidence.
 

Veloise

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Yesterday's protest, at the Lansing governors residence (which is owned by the state of Michigan) attracted maybe two dozen of them, and about as many media folks.

weed whacko

This stable genius showed up with a lawn implement to do some performance art
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
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You need to check your state quarters collection! ;)

Michigan became a state in 1837, not 1836. I know this because I remember some cheesy tourism commercials where they had people trying to correctly pronounce "sesquicentennial" and my parents still have a commemorative 1837-1987 license plate hanging up in the garage.


Re: Nathaniel Pope's line dividing Illinois and Wisconsin, I believe it is the same latitude as 8 Mile Road which is also one of the baselines for the original survey in Michigan. I've always wondered if that had anything to do with the border between Illinois and Wisconsin or if it was just coincidence.
D'oh. Thanks for keeping me grounded. :)
 
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michaelskis

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Gretchen Whitmer has been floated for VP I believe...
It has, but I would be surprised if she gets the nod. While many states have made reasonable efforts to curb COVID-19, some of her policies have not gone over well with people in MI, including those in her own party. For example, you take take a kayak out to fish, but you can't take a motor boat out, and you take take a full sail boat out into the lake, but jet skis are prohibited. There are a bunch of similar restrictions when it comes to home stores and what can, and cannot be sold.

As I have noted before, many of the regulations that she has put in place make sense. Others make sense for the Detroit Metro Area, but when you get up to Keweenaw County, (top of the peninsula) where there are 0 cases (and yes they have testing), things like not being able to take the boat out fishing is a little overkill.
 

Veloise

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Speaking of my fair state, we are located on the border with Canada, and have many historical places that were part of the Underground Railroad.


This state senator wore a face mask "that appeared" to be made from a Confederate flag.
“Even if it was a Confederate flag, you know, we should be talking about teaching our national history in schools and that’s part of our national history and it’s something we can’t just throw away because it is part of our history. And if we want to make sure that the atrocities that happened during that time doesn’t happen again, we should be teaching it. Our kids should know what that flag stands for.”

His district is pretty close to the afore-mentioned Toledo strip. I don't see why he doesn't wear a burgee if he wants attention so badly.
 
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