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NEVERENDING ∞ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
15,096
Points
52
Just saw a nice thing on the whole militia thing on GMA or some other show this weekend. There were two camps in the militia argument. One for an organized militia which not everyone agreed on because that was still too close to an army. The organized militia later became the guard. The other camp was the unorganized militia which I just picture as a bunch of people wondering around asking who's turn it was to bring the ammo and what day the picnic was on. Very unorganized, but still active today. The program was bringing it all up based on the crazy Michigan people (Mskies is no longer a crazy Michigan person, he's now a crazy NC person - not much better ;)). The rest of the program brought up the evils of these unorganized militias and things I relate less to the 2nd amendment and more to crazy people just being crazy. My answer to the gun thing would be to limit the access by crazy people, but you would first have to define crazy without violating some other rights. Plotting to kidnap the governor because you can't go to your favorite burger joint without a mask might meet that definition.
 

Linda_D

Cyburbian
Messages
1,748
Points
20

Not our Faith SuperPAC is pretty interesting. They make the argument that you can't be pro-life and vote Trump. They push that pro-life, in biblical teachings is about more than just abortion and includes how children and families are treated. They argue Trump is not pro-life and that Biden, a devout Catholic is more pro-life overall.

As someone who is continually confused by how in 2020 you can be a single issue voter, this group is getting at a lot of what I think is needed in terms of discussion with strong Christians. Pick your passage, but it is clear that Trump isn't "overall" more pro-life, or pro-bible, or pro-Christian. He is likely, when looked objectively at the whole pictures, much less all of those things than Biden.
Trump is only pro-Trump. He has repeatedly shown that he cares for nobody or nothing except himself and his personal desires, including the lives of his own supporters.
I thought I have been clear, but it does not appear that I have been clear enough if you don't understand my position. I support background checks, I support mandatory training before purchase of weapons, including how to properly store it. I support rational gun regulations. But limiting the capacity is not rational. Limiting weapons based on appearance is not rational.

What would be rational is to focus on why these crimes are happening rather that the tool used to carry them out. But liberals want to blame the gun rather than the shooter.



The part that you are forgetting is the definition of a well regulated Militia at the time of writing is very different than it is now. It was not 'the national guard or some other paramilitary group. It was the individual citizens with a similar believe called upon in a moments notice to protect a town or other area. But we only seem to focus on a modern definition of militia and reviewing the introductory clause.




And now, for a non-gun political related question... If someone vote by absentee ballot or votes early and then dies, should their vote count on election day? Given we are in a pandemic and there are record numbers early or absentee voting, I think it might be applicable.
What about someone who will be 18 before January 20, 2021? Should they be able to vote as they will be of age before the inauguration? Where is the hard line on all of this?

Actually militias in the early Republic were not based on "similar belief" but rather they were simply self-protection and/or law enforcement organizations. They were somewhat like volunteer fire departments in small towns today. In the 1780s, there were still British troops stationed on US territory (and wouldn't leave until several years after the War of 1812). Indeed, many of the local militias served with regular US troops during the War of 1812. The actual threat of attack from Native Americans to frontier communities was very real. The fear of Native American attacks on more settled communities was still strong even if not justified. Finally, in most of the US outside of the cities and larger towns, there was little or no local law enforcement. When there was a crime, the locals formed a posse to capture the perpetrator(s).

Moreover, through much of the 19th century, militia participation was often required rather than voluntary just as farmers were often expected to help maintain the public roads that ran past their farms. Public participation in maintaining "law and order" or public roads was simply providing services in lieu of tax monies.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,232
Points
52
Just saw a nice thing on the whole militia thing on GMA or some other show this weekend. There were two camps in the militia argument. One for an organized militia which not everyone agreed on because that was still too close to an army. The organized militia later became the guard. The other camp was the unorganized militia which I just picture as a bunch of people wondering around asking who's turn it was to bring the ammo and what day the picnic was on. Very unorganized, but still active today. The program was bringing it all up based on the crazy Michigan people (Mskies is no longer a crazy Michigan person, he's now a crazy NC person - not much better ;)). The rest of the program brought up the evils of these unorganized militias and things I relate less to the 2nd amendment and more to crazy people just being crazy. My answer to the gun thing would be to limit the access by crazy people, but you would first have to define crazy without violating some other rights. Plotting to kidnap the governor because you can't go to your favorite burger joint without a mask might meet that definition.

Hey, come on. My therapist agrees that I am not crazy.... anymore.... much....

You are spot on with the Michigan Militia. I would go as far as saying they are a paramilitary extremist domestic terrorism group. They should not have guns.

Actually militias in the early Republic were not based on "similar belief" but rather they were simply self-protection and/or law enforcement organizations. They were somewhat like volunteer fire departments in small towns today. In the 1780s, there were still British troops stationed on US territory (and wouldn't leave until several years after the War of 1812). Indeed, many of the local militias served with regular US troops during the War of 1812. The actual threat of attack from Native Americans to frontier communities was very real. The fear of Native American attacks on more settled communities was still strong even if not justified. Finally, in most of the US outside of the cities and larger towns, there was little or no local law enforcement. When there was a crime, the locals formed a posse to capture the perpetrator(s).

Moreover, through much of the 19th century, militia participation was often required rather than voluntary just as farmers were often expected to help maintain the public roads that ran past their farms. Public participation in maintaining "law and order" or public roads was simply providing services in lieu of tax monies.
Sorry, but I don't understand how protection of family, community, and assets among a group of people is not "similar belief." It is with my neighbors and I.
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,029
Points
55

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
13,429
Points
55

Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
5,524
Points
40
Got out and did my civic duty this morning - basically no wait time, and casting my ballot took all of about a minute-and-a-half. The poll workers were pretty much all at least one generation younger than I'm used to seeing, with a couple of twenty-somethings handling the end process of collecting the ballots.
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
13,429
Points
55
I left work 15 minutes early, drove to polling station, stood in line, checked in, voted & out the door in less than 10 minutes. Nice that that is now done.

I wish there was a way that I could cancelled all polling calls, commercials & mailed flyers since I voted & don't need to be influenced anymore. :p

BTW-surprising for this area, but everyone wore a mask once they were standing in line & there were some tRumpers there. I overheard one lady on her phone telling someone all these death numbers are fake because she knew someone that died of pneumonia & it was listed as COVID. :grimace: ...and Fauci is this "idiot".
 

Linda_D

Cyburbian
Messages
1,748
Points
20
Sorry, but I don't understand how protection of family, community, and assets among a group of people is not "similar belief." It is with my neighbors and I.

Do you and your neighbors all believe the same thing? If a neighbor needed help in an emergency, would you base your assistance on whether his or her political affiliation aligned with yours? Your post seemed to me to imply that the militias in the Early National Period were based on some kind of ideology. Maybe that's not what you meant.

I don't consider patriotism or desire/need for mutual aid to be ideological. Just the opposite. The raison d'etre of the militias was simply pragmatic response to local situations. Rather than being organizations that were somehow opposed to "the government" -- which is how many of private militia supporters today see them -- 19th century militias were essentially extensions of government, providing services that communities needed intermittantly that states couldn't effectively provide.
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,029
Points
55
40 million people have voted. In 2016 we had a total of 135 million. If we assume a bump up to maybe 140 million we are looking at over 1 in 4 people. Maybe this year is the year we see 160 million! Doubtful, but some people are saying we could, since we have an estimated 255 million eligible voters. Even then we have seen 1 in 4 voters for sure.

Although maybe the debate tomorrow matters to someone, it seems like this year we are looking at a different voting system. With a week to go we could see 70-100 million of the votes already cast. That is crazy.

This is already dated and it is 15 hours old...
 

kjel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
12,549
Points
42
40 million people have voted. In 2016 we had a total of 135 million. If we assume a bump up to maybe 140 million we are looking at over 1 in 4 people. Maybe this year is the year we see 160 million! Doubtful, but some people are saying we could, since we have an estimated 255 million eligible voters. Even then we have seen 1 in 4 voters for sure.

Although maybe the debate tomorrow matters to someone, it seems like this year we are looking at a different voting system. With a week to go we could see 70-100 million of the votes already cast. That is crazy.

This is already dated and it is 15 hours old...
It's going to be a record turnout. Those states with early voting or vote by mail are in full swing. I need to drop my ballot off this weekend. I just hope that Biden wins by a decisive margin so we can start to get a move on. I know Trump will go scorched earth between election day and inauguration day though so the nonsense will continue.
 
Messages
2,638
Points
22
More issues with the U.S. Postal Service come to light.

USPS told its postal police officers to stand down, igniting concerns about mail-in ballot security and sparking another lawsuit against the agency​


The order directed officers to "end all mail-protection and other law-enforcement activity away from the confines of postal real estate," the Postal Police Officers Association said in its September complaint against the agency...
The USPS employs around 455 uniformed officers who conduct patrols meant to safeguard mail collection boxes, delivery vehicles, and buildings against theft, as well as another 1,300 plainclothes detectives who collectively work to ensure the security of the mail, according to The Wall Street Journal.
 

Super Amputee Cat

Cyburbian
Messages
2,312
Points
32
Well, 538 has finally put out their election forecast map by state. It looks a lot like 2016 and we know how that worked out. I don't believe that this map is accurate at all. And I am still full of anxiety waiting for that October surprise. We will have to see how the next two weeks pan out but I'm not feeling good about it at al.

538 Poll 2020-10-21.jpg
 

kjel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
12,549
Points
42
Well, 538 has finally put out their election forecast map by state. It looks a lot like 2016 and we know how that worked out. I don't believe that this map is accurate at all. And I am still full of anxiety waiting for that October surprise. We will have to see how the next two weeks pan out but I'm not feeling good about it at al.

View attachment 49409
It feels like the election is tilting towards Biden but anything can happen with Darth Cheeto. My fear is that we will not know the outcome of the election for weeks. He's going to go scorched earth between Election Day and Inauguration Day if Biden wins so we are in no way finished with the crazy.
 

Maister

Chairman of the bored
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
28,920
Points
71
I didn't watch the final debate, but from all accounts Trump didn't roll around frothing at the mouth this time like he did during the first debate, so that at least helped him. I doubt seriously that anything said at last nights debate moved the needle one way or the other.
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
13,429
Points
55
Two very distinct pauses in last night's debate.

1st - tRump said he took full responsibility to the fed's covid response.

2nd - When tRump continually badgered Biden about why the Obama/Biden administration couldn't get legislation passed, Biden answered the Congress
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
25,988
Points
63
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
13,429
Points
55
tRump @ his rallies:
"The virus is under control"

Mark Meadows, WH Chief of Staff (& unfortunately from NC):
"We're not going to control the pandemic"


WHICH IS IT BOYS??!???!
 

Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
5,524
Points
40
An odd note from the current campaign season in metro Atlanta - the sheer volume of television ads for state house and senate seats has been astonishing. Also, a pro tip for the candidates running these ads - you probably should mention your district number at some point in the ads - there's only one of you that has figured this point out (and she ain't running in my districts, so please stop subjecting me to your ads).
 
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WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
10,723
Points
49
An odd note form the current campaign season in metro Atlanta - the sheer volume of television ads for state house and senate seats has been astonishing. Also, a pro tip for the candidates running these ads - you probably should mention your district number at some point in the ads - there's only one of you that has figured this point out (and she ain't running in my districts, so please stop subjecting me to your ads).

I've noticed a lot more adds for state house and senate seats here in the Detroit area too. In the past, we'd occasionally see a few adds for people running in some of the wealthier, more sprawly suburban districts but this cycle I've seen quite a few for folks running in Detroit and in some of the exurban and primarily rural districts. These are districts that probably are not competitive. I imagine that this is a result of all the extra money getting sent to the parties and other PACs - they can only spend so much money on the presidential and other federal elections and since the governor isn't up for reelection here this year, the money just trickles down to the local races.

Thankfully, I haven't yet been subjected to adds for county commissioners or local council seats.
 

gtpeach

Cyburbian
Messages
2,151
Points
22
Where will women get abortions, especially those with means? Serious question.

Is this in reference to something specific? I don't think it's likely that abortion would be illegalized nationwide.

Assuming Roe was overturned, abortion access determinations would go back to the states. Women with means who want an abortion would be able to travel to another state to obtain one. Without actually looking anything up to verify this, it seems likely that women without means would be more likely to be harmed in "black market" abortion attempts.

I was listening to a podcast recently, though, that said that if Roe ever got overturned, it would likely reduce the total number of abortions by something like 10-12%.
 
Messages
2,638
Points
22

"What Kind Of Supreme Court Justice Will Amy Coney Barrett Be?"​


One week after the election, on November 10th, the Supreme Court will begin hearing a case involving the constitutionality of the Affordable Care Act (ACA), ie. "Obamacare".

With Justice Barrett on the bench, the entire ACA could be declared invalid.
The operative word is "could". Keeping my fingers crossed that Justice Barrett recuses herself from this case so that the Supreme Court vote is a 4-4 tie, in which case the ACA stands.
_____________________________________________________________________
Have you seen the "Dogs for Biden" FB & Twitter pages ?
Many cute and wonderful dogs wearing hats & garments with that slogan.

Not to be outdone, there are also "Cats for Biden" social media pages.
One of their slogans:
"Biden doesn't grab ***** "

The horsies have a slogan, too:
"Ridin' for Biden"
In Nevada, Latinos atop horses in their own parade,
with cars cruising behind, in <hastag>StrollForBiden:
 
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Messages
2,638
Points
22
Jared Kushner's statement - just :r::wow::plunger::fire::poop::hole:
Are you talking about what he said:puke: here? (My bolding)
Jared Kushner criticized athletes and others who have protested against U.S. racism on social media and basketball courts and suggested that Black people had to want to succeed for policies to change.
 

kjel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
12,549
Points
42
Where will women get abortions, especially those with means? Serious question.
Where they always did....at their doctor. My grandmother was an OB/GYN that practiced from the 1940s-1980. She had the normal line of business of taking care of women's reproductive needs under the scope of the prevailing laws at the time and the other line of business of arranging adoptions, caring for women with botched back alley or self induced abortions, and pretty certain she provided abortions for women of means. My mother and aunt remember there were frequently women that were guests in their home for a few days at a time and there was a large household staff of "maids" beyond what one would expect for a family of 4.

The only thing that will happen if Roe v Wade is overturned is an increase in women's deaths and pressure on the already broken child welfare system.
 

Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
5,524
Points
40
I always wish more states did run-off and jungle elections like Georgia does.

Curious question for @Bubba - Do people in Georgia actually like this system?

The jungle elections are outliers - we really only see them when there's a house or senate seat to fill due to a retirement/resignation or an untimely death (RIP John Lewis). I'm not overly crazy about them, but having a subsequent runoff that ensures the winner actually gets over 50% of the vote makes them easier to accept.
 

Super Amputee Cat

Cyburbian
Messages
2,312
Points
32

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
25,988
Points
63
An Indian walks into a cafe with a shotgun in one hand and pulling a male buffalo with the other.
He says to the waiter: "Want coffee."
The waiter says, "Sure, Chief. Coming right up."
He gets the Indian a tall mug of coffee . . .
The Indian drinks the coffee down in one gulp, turns and blasts the buffalo with the shotgun, causing parts of the animal to splatter everywhere and then just walks out.
The next morning the Indian returns.
He has his shotgun in one hand, pulling another male buffalo with the other.
He walks up to the counter and says to the waiter: "Want coffee."
The waiter says, "Whoa, Tonto! We're still cleaning up your mess from yesterday. What was all that about, anyway?"
The Indian smiles and proudly says, "Training for a position in United States Congress . . . Come in, drink coffee, shoot the bull, leave mess for others to clean up, disappear for rest of day."
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
14,141
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58

Maister

Chairman of the bored
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28,920
Points
71
I've decided I'm swearing off political news for the next week. According to every reputable poll conducted since April, Biden has maintained a commanding lead and should win handily if there are fair and free elections. I'll pick the news back up after November 3 when Trump declares voter fraud and whether his party decides to join in on the Russian's intel op intended to throw doubt on the validity of the process and sanctity of democratically held elections. That will be a sad day for this country. :(
 
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