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NEVERENDING ∞ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

gtpeach

Cyburbian
Messages
2,159
Points
22
I just signed up. Remind me and I'll go back every once in a while.

I think it's more like Twitter than FB, and I'm not very good at Twitter so I'm not sure how much good I'll be.

You're a trooper! I think I deactivated my twitter account. But I'll still go look at people's threads sometimes (usually when there's something happening and it's being reported on already) and roll my eyes and get worked up for no good reason.
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
26,024
Points
64
I hear New Yorker's sometimes just um...disappear.
From the movie Godfather

Sonny Corleone: [Tessio brings in Luca Brasi's bulletproof vest, delivered with a fish inside] What the hell is this?
Clemenza: It's a Sicilian message. It means Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes.
 

Super Amputee Cat

Cyburbian
Messages
2,322
Points
32
SCOTUS Justice Alito gives highly politicized speech to Federalists Conference.

This should be alarming and many news outlets are reporting, but here is the HuffPost one:
RBG is dead and yet he is still alive. It just re-affirms my Asshole God theory.
 

Big Owl

Cyburbian
Messages
2,716
Points
32
Anyone dipping their toes into Parler or MeWe? I'm fascinated by the "mass exodus," but not enough to actually create accounts to see what is actually happening.

So far, based on the people that have made declarations about leaving Facebook and Twitter, I'm probably going to be a more sane person by not going out of my way to see what the fuss is about.
Conservatives fleeing from Facebook or Twitter to Parler after the elections is social media equivalent of moving to Canada.
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,046
Points
55
Conservatives fleeing from Facebook or Twitter to Parler after the elections is social media equivalent of moving to Canada.
Also Parler has around 300k people on it. Twitter is around 300 million. It is like going to be just talking to yourself... because no one is there to listen...

If I can't play the way I want to play, I am going to take my ball home and play by myself... looks around to see who is really sad about this, and says it again LOUDER
 

gtpeach

Cyburbian
Messages
2,159
Points
22
Also Parler has around 300k people on it. Twitter is around 300 million. It is like going to be just talking to yourself... because no one is there to listen...

If I can't play the way I want to play, I am going to take my ball home and play by myself... looks around to see who is really sad about this, and says it again LOUDER

That's the irony of the whole thing, right? Who are you going to be trying to convince that you're right? You can share all this information with other people who already agree with you, but is that what they really want? There will still be disagreements and people arguing I'm sure, but the disagreements will be between people who are moderately extreme and people who are on the very, very fringes of extreme...
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,046
Points
55
That's the irony of the whole thing, right? Who are you going to be trying to convince that you're right? You can share all this information with other people who already agree with you, but is that what they really want? There will still be disagreements and people arguing I'm sure, but the disagreements will be between people who are moderately extreme and people who are on the very, very fringes of extreme...
Which is what makes it so terrible. It is just another echo chamber. We have too many echo chambers already.
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
26,024
Points
64

Trump Campaign Lawyer Comically Filed Election Lawsuit in Court That Had No Authority to Hear the Case​

 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,046
Points
55
I do not believe that anyone is "ignorant" because they don't agree with me. I really hope that people who support President Trump start to at least clearly explain how they are agreeable to this kind of language?

I somewhat understand that most republicans can't just scream about Biden winning because they fear re-election issues from people who are obsessed with the President. This is where John McCain comes in and brings class back to the place... (edited from McCain's actual defense of Obama...)

"No, sir, they are decent people who are citizens of our country that I just happen to have disagreements with on fundamental issues, and that’s what the campaign’s all about. He’s not ignorant".
 

gtpeach

Cyburbian
Messages
2,159
Points
22
I really miss the days when the Republican party put up candidates like Mitt Romney and John McCain. While I didn't vote for them, I really wouldn't have been upset if they won. Because between Obama and Romney or McCain, I didn't question any of their basic levels of competency or desire to do what was in the best interest of our country based on their political philosophies. I agree with McCain - we can disagree on what's best for the country but still respect others on the other side. Honestly, we probably don't want a country that is run completely by one side or the other - we're better when we have to work together to think things through from different perspectives. We need people in politics that embrace that as part of our system, instead of villainizing the other side. I'm very afraid that this will be a race to the bottom with rhetoric on both sides. I hope Biden's time as President can help restore some basic level of decorum, but... I'm just sad about where things are now.

Also, I'd love to hear from any history/political philosophy buffs about how this is not the most terrrible/divisive time in our nation's modern history. It might just feel like that because social media has made us aware of daily conversations and thoughts that we wouldn't have otherwise been privy to, both from our POTUS and from others in our social circles.
 

Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
5,533
Points
40
Also, I'd love to hear from any history/political philosophy buffs about how this is not the most terrrible/divisive time in our nation's modern history. It might just feel like that because social media has made us aware of daily conversations and thoughts that we wouldn't have otherwise been privy to, both from our POTUS and from others in our social circles.

Ah, um...ever heard of a little thing called the American Civil War?

EDIT: And, yes, I know you stipulated "modern". Still...
 
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Super Amputee Cat

Cyburbian
Messages
2,322
Points
32
I really miss the days when the Republican party put up candidates like Mitt Romney and John McCain. While I didn't vote for them, I really wouldn't have been upset if they won.


Yeah, but if McCain would have won and died in office, then Sara Palin would have been president and that would be a horror that is beyond comprehension.
 

Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
5,533
Points
40
Yeah, but if McCain would have won and died in office, then Sara Palin would have been president and that would be a horror that is beyond comprehension.

:roflmao:

In your hypothetical, the Republic would have still been standing after her term(s), and you wouldn't be in a gulag because of your political beliefs. You really need to relax, dude...
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,046
Points
55
No, but there are plenty of people who don't agree with you who are most certainly ignorant.
Sure, but it isn't my place to determine their level of ignorance. If you are doing it because you don't care, aren't informed, or are informed and are still making that decision, it doesn't exactly matter. Your opinion is different.

You and I may differ on many topics, but that doesn't mean that I am going to see you as ignorant.

Personally, I wish more people made themselves more knowledgeable. But I also understand that requires people to use their time to research and understand topics, which they won't do.

My hope is that we get politicians who follow norms, speak well of each other in public, and fight hard behind closed doors. We find ways to reduce our need for political rhetoric, or blame, and find ways to get solutions. In the end solutions are what matters. We have had very few solution discussions that didn't involve name calling over the last 4 years. My hope is that the next 4 year will involve more solutions, and less blame.

Ps. Yes, I am aware this isn't going to happen....
 

Veloise

Cyburbian
Messages
5,871
Points
33
Our gov held a highly unusual Sunday evening news conference to notify of a new health department order that takes effect Wednesday. She included the health director who stepped up to the mic and explained the new restrictions.
Our lege cancelled session last week due to a bunch of them coming down with COVID. Also, deer season started yesterday; they are on a vacation break until December.
The senate majority leader issued a press release blasting the gov. A Detroit TV station reporter asked her about it. Her reply was so impressive that I spent the time to find the tape and transcribe it:

"We have been including the legislature in our weekly modeling calls. We have had a number of conversations in addition to that with our experts, so that they can avail themselves of the opportunity to ask questions. We also held a quadrant call last week, and during that call I again reiterated my plea to have codification of the mask mandate. I think we've got to get the politics out of masking up -- it's the best weapon we have against our common enemy. It was dismissed out of hand.
After that, I said, "well, what is your plan?"
"And there wasn't one, other than doing some public service announcements.
"The legislature is an important part of government. But the legislature was designed to be a deliberative body. The executive office has vested in it the ability to act swiftly under urgent circumstances.
"That's where we are.
"We are using powers, epidemic powers, given to the Health and Human Services director, by the legislature, in reaction to the last pandemic we were in. The supreme court also said, "these are the powers to use," that is what we are doing.
"We will continue to keep the legislature informed, we will continue to encourage them to mask up as well. As you know, they cancelled session this week because of a COVID outbreak, and one person did show up with COVID, into the legislature.
We don't have time. We've got to act swiftly. We will continue to keep people apprised of the situation and to share what is happening, they all had the information before this press conference. But we've got to act swiftly, and I'm going to continue to use every tool at my disposal to save lives in Michigan."
I don't twit; someone found this and I went looking for a version to share.

shirkey.jpg

One of his colleagues has called for her impeachment. Here's a photo of that guy's wife. She's at the Detroit convention center trying to stop the people of Detroit from counting the AV ballots in their election.

 
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Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
13,452
Points
55
& tRump's adviser Dr. Atlas tells Michiganders to defy the Governor's orders...soon after there was been a confirmed plot against her & the government...this is akin to tRump's LIBERATE MICHIGAN tweet. Let's incite violence, okay?
 

Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
5,533
Points
40
Evidently, (R) Governor Kemp has now conspired with Stacey Abrams to steal the election in GA. o_O

There's a backstory on Trump versus Kemp going back to the appointment to fill Isakson's senate seat. But, hey, one rust belt poster here thinks Kemp is da debil, or something, and firmly believes that Kemp stole the gubernatorial election from Abrams ( :roflmao:) , so there's absolutely no possible way those two could ever have the same opinion on enforcing regs...
 

dw914er

Cyburbian
Messages
1,492
Points
20
Parler/MeWe/Gab. I've actually heard MeWe is okay.
Mski's went to parler. Facebook/twitter algorithms already tend to skew ads and suggested feeds based on your preferences, which creates a bad enough echo chamber, but the idea of a more politically slanted platform with "freedom" or whatever they want to call it seems like nothing but a terrible outcome.
 

HomerJ

Cyburbian
Messages
1,112
Points
17
I really miss the days when the Republican party put up candidates like Mitt Romney and John McCain. While I didn't vote for them, I really wouldn't have been upset if they won. Because between Obama and Romney or McCain, I didn't question any of their basic levels of competency or desire to do what was in the best interest of our country based on their political philosophies. I agree with McCain - we can disagree on what's best for the country but still respect others on the other side. Honestly, we probably don't want a country that is run completely by one side or the other - we're better when we have to work together to think things through from different perspectives. We need people in politics that embrace that as part of our system, instead of villainizing the other side. I'm very afraid that this will be a race to the bottom with rhetoric on both sides. I hope Biden's time as President can help restore some basic level of decorum, but... I'm just sad about where things are now.

Also, I'd love to hear from any history/political philosophy buffs about how this is not the most terrrible/divisive time in our nation's modern history. It might just feel like that because social media has made us aware of daily conversations and thoughts that we wouldn't have otherwise been privy to, both from our POTUS and from others in our social circles.

Although I wouldn't say this is THE most divisive time in modern history, it certainly is up there and I don't yet see any clear resolutions in the near future. I'm more convinced now that moderates from either side won't be able to reverse the trends already happening (e.g. even more extreme red/blue rural/urban division), but I do hope they can at least slow them down for the time being.
 

luckless pedestrian

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
12,678
Points
54
I hate to be so avenging, but I really want to see Lindsey go down for asking ballots to be thrown out - as I keep saying, when is enough, enough - it's truly disgusting and very scary
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
10,740
Points
49
What's up in Wayne County? I'll certify this, but not that?!?

Glad they finally got together.

It's because black people live and vote there pure and simple. They were citing "irregularities" in the numbers of votes cast and what was in the poll books (the poll books are notoriously wrong everywhere thanks to poor training by election workers and time constraints and they do not reflect actual registered voter numbers) in precincts across the county but they refused to certify the results unless the canvassing board agreed to throw out all of the votes from the Detroit precincts. :r:

Nevermind those pesky precincts in Livonia or Dearborn or Taylor or Canton or the Pointes that had bigger discrepancies... they've got a lot of white people and cast more votes for Trump.

I've got friends who were poll watchers in Detroit (some R, some D, and even a Green) and others who were actually working the elections and the stories they've shared about other poll watchers have been pretty bad. From what I've gathered, the poll watchers who were from SE Michigan were well behaved regardless of their affiliation but there were a lot of poll watchers who came in from Up North or out of state and that's where the examples of outright racism and absolute unwillingness to follow the pre-established and agreed upon rules came from.
 

Veloise

Cyburbian
Messages
5,871
Points
33
It's because black people live and vote there pure and simple. They were citing "irregularities" in the numbers of votes cast and what was in the poll books (the poll books are notoriously wrong everywhere thanks to poor training by election workers and time constraints and they do not reflect actual registered voter numbers) in precincts across the county but they refused to certify the results unless the canvassing board agreed to throw out all of the votes from the Detroit precincts. :r:

Nevermind those pesky precincts in Livonia or Dearborn or Taylor or Canton or the Pointes that had bigger discrepancies... they've got a lot of white people and cast more votes for Trump.

I've got friends who were poll watchers in Detroit (some R, some D, and even a Green) and others who were actually working the elections and the stories they've shared about other poll watchers have been pretty bad. From what I've gathered, the poll watchers who were from SE Michigan were well behaved regardless of their affiliation but there were a lot of poll watchers who came in from Up North or out of state and that's where the examples of outright racism and absolute unwillingness to follow the pre-established and agreed upon rules came from.
One of the articles I read explained that the poll books can be off for something as simple as a voter deciding that the line is too long and walking out.

Freep:
"Of Detroit's 503 Election Day precincts, 85 recorded unexplained discrepancies in the vote totals as did 94 of the city's 134 absent voter counting boards. The majority of Election Day precincts and absent voter counting boards that were not in "balance," recorded discrepancies of three votes or less. Ten Election Day precincts and 43 absent voter counting boards recorded discrepancies of four or more votes. The discrepancies amount to roughly 387 votes. Detroit's unofficial election results show roughly 150,000 Detroiters voted in November's election."

Good info here in NYT
 

Veloise

Cyburbian
Messages
5,871
Points
33
But wait! Last night they both submitted affidavits, with the help of a PR firm, claiming that they wanted to "rescind" their votes to certify.
And Guliani withdraw his lawsuit against the state, citing that action.

Per the AP, 45 called each of them. And they felt threatened. And the right-wing is circulating a poorly-edited video from one of the zoom call citizens, alleging threats.

The adventure continues.
 

luckless pedestrian

Super Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
12,678
Points
54
But wait! Last night they both submitted affidavits, with the help of a PR firm, claiming that they wanted to "rescind" their votes to certify.
And Guliani withdraw his lawsuit against the state, citing that action.

Per the AP, 45 called each of them. And they felt threatened. And the right-wing is circulating a poorly-edited video from one of the zoom call citizens, alleging threats.

The adventure continues.

I think it's sad they won't stand up to him - what could he do to them now - they could be whistleblowers!
 

Veloise

Cyburbian
Messages
5,871
Points
33
The latest: these two clowns (GOP heads of the state senate and house) are heading to DC tomorrow to meet with 45, and "discuss the election."


Fun fact: polling is handled by local and county clerks, overseen by our SOS. The lege is uninvolved.

More on the speaker of the house
 
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gtpeach

Cyburbian
Messages
2,159
Points
22
Again, I need some history buffs to put this into context. I realize presidential races have been contentious in the past. But did any of the candidates ever claim widespread fraud before? It seems to me that beyond anything else, past presidential candidates all have had a base level respect for the process itself.

NOT THAT THIS IS A DOOMSDAY POST, but in the very off-chance that the electoral college ends up being rigged to put in pro-Trump supporters that will vote him in anyway, is that the end of the electoral college at that point? Because that would seem to work against the long-term interests of the Republican party.
 

Maister

Chairman of the bored
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Moderator
Messages
28,945
Points
71
Again, I need some history buffs to put this into context. I realize presidential races have been contentious in the past. But did any of the candidates ever claim widespread fraud before? It seems to me that beyond anything else, past presidential candidates all have had a base level respect for the process itself.

NOT THAT THIS IS A DOOMSDAY POST, but in the very off-chance that the electoral college ends up being rigged to put in pro-Trump supporters that will vote him in anyway, is that the end of the electoral college at that point? Because that would seem to work against the long-term interests of the Republican party.
Historically, allegations of election fraud in the US have been limited to very specific localized areas (think Cook County, IL). Never have there been allegations of a broad national conspiracy spanning multiple states that reversed the course of a federal election that I am aware of.
 

Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
5,533
Points
40

gtpeach

Cyburbian
Messages
2,159
Points
22

Interesting. I do remember this being thrown out as a possibility now during the 2016 election, but didn't pay close attention since it didn't result in a different outcome from what was expected. I'd imagine if it did alter the outcome, we'd be having a much different conversation about the usefulness of the electoral college at this point. :)
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
13,452
Points
55
Today:

Go to CNN website and several of the top stories are about tRump elections fraud pursuits & Rudy's news conference.

Go to Fox News website & there's not one article that talks about those things. No mention of Rudy in the headlines or tRump's twisting Michigan congressional leaders arms to come to DC for 'a talk'.

If its there, I missed it.
 

Veloise

Cyburbian
Messages
5,871
Points
33
There's a group in the Detroit metro area called Fems for Dems. Those wiley witches checked all the flights going to DC and convened at DTW at 5 am. This is the send-off to the head of the Senate.

Chad Livengood writes: "If Mike Shirkey runs for governor in 2022, we're going to be seeing this video on TV a lot."


I've read that there was a similar group of greeters at Reagan National.
 

Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
5,533
Points
40
Today:

Go to CNN website and several of the top stories are about tRump elections fraud pursuits & Rudy's news conference.

Go to Fox News website & there's not one article that talks about those things. No mention of Rudy in the headlines or tRump's twisting Michigan congressional leaders arms to come to DC for 'a talk'.

If its there, I missed it.

Currently on the front page of the Fox News website:


 

HomerJ

Cyburbian
Messages
1,112
Points
17
My big prediction:

Before 2030, nullification (maybe secession) will become one of the top policy issues discussed with a 50/50 chance of occurring. I won't predict which state(s) or which party will initiate, but in this time of peak divisiveness it seems like either party gaining control of the house, senate, and presidency will set up the domino effect. 2022 seems possible albeit unlikely; 2024 could be a real doozy of an election.

You heard it here first folks.
 

gtpeach

Cyburbian
Messages
2,159
Points
22
My big prediction:

Before 2030, nullification (maybe secession) will become one of the top policy issues discussed with a 50/50 chance of occurring. I won't predict which state(s) or which party will initiate, but in this time of peak divisiveness it seems like either party gaining control of the house, senate, and presidency will set up the domino effect. 2022 seems possible albeit unlikely; 2024 could be a real doozy of an election.

You heard it here first folks.

I haven't considered nullification before. But I don't really understand how that would play out on a broad scale. If the nullification was basically denying the authority of the federal government across the board, wouldn't that effectively be secession?
 

MD Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
2,619
Points
40
That's all a bunch of hooey. There is no state in the Union that could currently survive just relying upon itself to raise enough revenue. Do some searching and look at how much federal money flows into all these states. Good luck replacing that. Aging infrastructure? Fix it yourself. Lots of older or poor folks needing health care? Fund your own Medicaid and Medicare. Another country is picking on you? Fight them yourself.
 

HomerJ

Cyburbian
Messages
1,112
Points
17
I suppose this could all play out a number of different ways, but as a hypothetical assume vaccine distribution next year hits a snag for whatever reason. Since other western countries have implemented national lockdowns, it is at a minimum a possibility to consider (I think a highly unlikely possibility but 2020 has been a year of surprises). I would think a handful of states refusing to comply with such a mandate is a form of nullification, certainly not an outright break. I make this prediction in partial jest because I would agree (in any other time) such a guess is a bunch of hooey.
 

arcplans

As Featured in "High Times"
Messages
6,683
Points
33
That's all a bunch of hooey. There is no state in the Union that could currently survive just relying upon itself to raise enough revenue. Do some searching and look at how much federal money flows into all these states. Good luck replacing that. Aging infrastructure? Fix it yourself. Lots of older or poor folks needing health care? Fund your own Medicaid and Medicare. Another country is picking on you? Fight them yourself.
Out of all the states that could survive on it's own, California is probably in best shape (minus the whole military thing).
 
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