• Ongoing coronavirus / COVID-19 discussion: how is the pandemic affecting your community, workplace, and wellness? 🦠

    Working from home? So are we. Come join us! Cyburbia is a friendly big tent, where we share our experiences and thoughts about urban planning practice, planning adjacent topics, and whatever else comes to mind. No ads, no spam, no social distancing.

NEVERENDING ♾️ The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,313
Points
59
The value of farmland didn't go substantially down even in 2008. I certainly would take land over gold or bitcoin. Land is finite (I get it so is gold and bitcoin!, but they are made up commodities that have no actual value). Mortgages obviously require a different mindset. But cash purchases of land are never going to not make sense (assuming you didn't overpay), because you actually own an object that whether it grows in value or not, can provide opportunities for whatever future we have.

Zombie apocalypses? I have land to build a bunker.

Food shortage? I have land to build a garden.

COVID? I have land to put solar panels and my "WEAR A MASK" signs.

Gold does none of that. Especially during a zombie apocalypse...
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
15,230
Points
59
The value of farmland didn't go substantially down even in 2008. I certainly would take land over gold or bitcoin. Land is finite (I get it so is gold and bitcoin!, but they are made up commodities that have no actual value). Mortgages obviously require a different mindset. But cash purchases of land are never going to not make sense (assuming you didn't overpay), because you actually own an object that whether it grows in value or not, can provide opportunities for whatever future we have.

Zombie apocalypses? I have land to build a bunker.

Food shortage? I have land to build a garden.

COVID? I have land to put solar panels and my "WEAR A MASK" signs.

Gold does none of that. Especially during a zombie apocalypse...
Yep.

I'm a coin collector and there is a strain of 'bullion stackers' in the hobby that demand 'gold/silver is Money' and the fiat bills are just a death spiral fiction.

In a financial crisis, I'd take cash in the bank, a good running car and/or free and clear land ownership over gold and silver bullion.

But the preppers are often correct, having a gun or two and a cache of ammunition is real 'money' in a total economic/societal collapse, but I don't see such an event happening.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,706
Points
56
The value of farmland didn't go substantially down even in 2008. I certainly would take land over gold or bitcoin. Land is finite (I get it so is gold and bitcoin!, but they are made up commodities that have no actual value). Mortgages obviously require a different mindset. But cash purchases of land are never going to not make sense (assuming you didn't overpay), because you actually own an object that whether it grows in value or not, can provide opportunities for whatever future we have.

Zombie apocalypses? I have land to build a bunker.

Food shortage? I have land to build a garden.

COVID? I have land to put solar panels and my "WEAR A MASK" signs.

Gold does none of that. Especially during a zombie apocalypse...
Overall, I agree and I think you mentioned something extremely important... Buying with CASH. Depending on the sources, over 60% of American Adults have a mortgage and about 36% are renters.

I am more worried about a civil disturbance than I am a zombie apocalypse.

(and the Gold and Silver thing was a joke...)
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,706
Points
56
Looks like the CODVID bill might get modified. The bill that the House passed had caps of $100,000 for single $200,000 for couples, but there is a new possible amendment what will drop those to $80,000 for singles and $160,000 for couples.

I would be interested to know how much of the population is in that gap and what the need is for those in that gap. Overall, I don't see this as a bad thing as long as those funds that would be staved are not being reallocated towards something wasteful.
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
26,495
Points
70
Marjorie Taylor Greene - continuing to issue insults

about Guam
about D.C.
referring to a Congressman as Mussolini
 

Maister

Chairman of the bored
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
29,608
Points
73
Marjorie Taylor Greene - continuing to issue insults

about Guam
about D.C.
referring to a Congressman as Mussolini
I'm of the opinion she needs to be studiously ignored. She's out for publicity pure and simple. Deny her the gift.
 

Bubba

Cyburbian
Messages
5,767
Points
45
I'm of the opinion she needs to be studiously ignored. She's out for publicity pure and simple. Deny her the gift.
The next election in that district is going to be a train wreck. The state legislature (GOP controlled in both houses) may redraw her district to make her path to reelection harder. There are already some folks lining up to try and primary her. And, eleventy billion Dems will try to qualify for the primary to oppose her. Throw her craziness into the mix, and it's time to break out the popcorn.
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
14,039
Points
57
She has called for adjournment 4 different times already to delay debates & votes. even a couple of Rs are complaining about her playing games.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,706
Points
56
And once again, Portland is in conflict, this time rioting and causing damage to a federal court house.

As you are aware, I am against this type of behavior regardless of the motivation. I don't care if it is protesting a pipe line, BLM, or one of the many right wing extremist movements. Its wrong.
 

Veloise

Cyburbian
Messages
6,019
Points
36
The next election in that district is going to be a train wreck. The state legislature (GOP controlled in both houses) may redraw her district to make her path to reelection harder. There are already some folks lining up to try and primary her. And, eleventy billion Dems will try to qualify for the primary to oppose her. Throw her craziness into the mix, and it's time to break out the popcorn.
WaPo had a fascinating article about the young man who was on the Democratic ticket for that seat. Her crazed fans started up with the death threats. His wife left him, he lost his job, had to withdraw from the election by moving to Indiana.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,706
Points
56
WaPo had a fascinating article about the young man who was on the Democratic ticket for that seat. Her crazed fans started up with the death threats. His wife left him, he lost his job, had to withdraw from the election by moving to Indiana.
It sounds like the GOP is tired of her as well. (CNN Link).

Why did this guy lose his job and his wife?
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
15,230
Points
59
meme_Grinch-holding our economy.jpg
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
26,495
Points
70
“This ‘tip line’ appears to have operated more like a garbage chute, with everything that came down the chute consigned without review to the figurative dumpster,”

Whitehouse Calls for Review of ‘Fake’ FBI Background Check into Kavanaugh in 2018​

 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,706
Points
56
Ok... I am likely to get some flack of this, but it needs to be said.

This push for political correctness is becoming ridiculous and hypocritical. We are banning children's books but allowing for music with explicit language? We are canceling Pepé Le Pew but are good with Cardi B singing about questionable things and dancing on a stripper pole on primetime television? The VP flipped out about Brett Cavanaugh but turn a blind eye on Gov. Cuomo? People flipping out about Gov. Cuomo but turning a blind eye to Trump.

I could go on and on, but you get the point. We as a society are willing to be accepting of some things only when expressed by some people, bit not others when expressed by other people. How is this equity?
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
14,039
Points
57
^^^This fully depends on which side of the aisle you fall on. The hypocrisy that shown its ugly head runs squarely along political lines - on both sides. It is not equality in the least.

The (few) ones who can see this needs to continue to call this out.
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
15,230
Points
59
The Dr. Suess books' decision was a purely self determined business move by the company itself.

When I was 10 yrs old (aka 1988), I found Pepe Le Pew tiresome, creepy and decidedly unfunny. Warner Bros. is deciding of their own accord to permanently bench the character.

The WAP performance on the Grammy's this past Sunday was likely suggestive, but happened after any good parent should have put their impressionable children to bed.

Cuomo should be 'cancelled' and Trump was cancelled.

VP Harris was on the review committee (as a Senator) for Cavanaugh's nomination and did what she was there to do. She is now VP and has decidedly more important stuff to worry about.

But at least we're talking about this stuff.

Let's not forget about the institutionalized racism, sexism, discrimination, hypocrisy, harassment, prudishness, etc. of humans prior to, like, 1970.
 
Last edited:

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
15,481
Points
53
Dr. Suess did it more publically. Disney just stop selling Song of the South and said nothing. They may have said something at the time, but it's better to quietly remove the offending items.
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,313
Points
59
The Dr. Suess books' decision was a purely self determined business move by the company itself.

When I was 10 yrs old (aka 1988), I found Pepe Le Pew tiresome, creepy and decidedly unfunny. Warner Bros. is deciding of their own accord to permanently bench the character.

The WAP performance on the Grammy's this past Sunday was likely suggestive, but happened after any good parent should have put their impressionable children to bed.

Cuomo should be 'cancelled' and Trump was cancelled.

VP Harris was on the review committee (as a Senator) for Cavanaugh's nomination and did what she was there to do. She is now VP and has decidedly more important stuff to worry about.

But at least we're talking about this stuff.

Let's not forget about the institutionalized racism, sexism, discrimination, hypocrisy, harassment, prudishness, etc. of humans prior to, like, 1970.
These are policy discussions and discussions on topics that we can and should disagree with each other. This is refreshing. Instead of talking about poopy-face mcgee who was mean to someone.

What I have taken away in the first couple months is that it just takes an adult in the White House to slow down the rhetoric. I don't agree with Joe on a number of items, but I respect that his tone is of leadership. It surprises me how quickly banning Trump from twitter would help calm the loudest contributors to misinformation in a while.
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,706
Points
56
The Dr. Suess books' decision was a purely self determined business move by the company itself.

When I was 10 yrs old (aka 1988), I found Pepe Le Pew tiresome, creepy and decidedly unfunny. Warner Bros. is deciding of their own accord to permanently bench the character.

The WAP performance on the Grammy's this past Sunday was likely suggestive, but happened after any good parent should have put their impressionable children to bed.

Cuomo should be 'cancelled' and Trump was cancelled.

VP Harris was on the review committee (as a Senator) for Cavanaugh's nomination and did what she was there to do. She is now VP and has decidedly more important stuff to worry about.

But at least we're talking about this stuff.

Let's not forget about the institutionalized racism, sexism, discrimination, hypocrisy, harassment, prudishness, etc. of humans prior to, like, 1970.
Likely Suggestive? Are you kidding me? You know what WAP stands for?

More so this is not about political parties because both are guilty of this if it fits their own agenda. But simple things like Mr. Potato Head and the controversy over Bert and Ernie a few years ago is more along the lines of what I am talking about. In terms of Disney, I think they did the right thing with Song of the South in how they did it. I do think firing the actress from the Mandalorian was the opposite though.

In terms of VP Harris, I think you were spot on with "She did what she was there to do" and that was to protect the party over everything else. She still does that today.

Overall, I think having this lines of communication is super important, but acting as if it never existed is a horrible way to go about it.
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,313
Points
59
Likely Suggestive? Are you kidding me? You know what WAP stands for?

More so this is not about political parties because both are guilty of this if it fits their own agenda. But simple things like Mr. Potato Head and the controversy over Bert and Ernie a few years ago is more along the lines of what I am talking about. In terms of Disney, I think they did the right thing with Song of the South in how they did it. I do think firing the actress from the Mandalorian was the opposite though.

In terms of VP Harris, I think you were spot on with "She did what she was there to do" and that was to protect the party over everything else. She still does that today.

Overall, I think having this lines of communication is super important, but acting as if it never existed is a horrible way to go about it.
The obsession with the past is a problem our country seems to continue to hold on to and push forward the idea that there is seismic changes in our society, etc. WAP in my head is a pretty clear move forward in terms of women's rights. She is talking about the same things we were cool with guys talking about for a long time...anyone remember magic stick by that mad whack half-dollar guy?

Who cares if Mr. Potato head is gone. Who cares if Disney has chosen to remove characters and movies that are considered offensive today? I love Splash Mountain, but I realize that Disney has that choice, and that "society" is moving forward.

I mean we continue to argue over what the founding of our country meant and what the founders actually meant when they wrote a document that had no way of contemplating the world today. There will always be people and parties that seem to want to live in the past and pretend like this is the 1800's. It isn't and the future is always going to win out over the history and past. That is just kinda how it works...
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,706
Points
56
The obsession with the past is a problem our country seems to continue to hold on to and push forward the idea that there is seismic changes in our society, etc. WAP in my head is a pretty clear move forward in terms of women's rights. She is talking about the same things we were cool with guys talking about for a long time...anyone remember magic stick by that mad whack half-dollar guy?

Who cares if Mr. Potato head is gone. Who cares if Disney has chosen to remove characters and movies that are considered offensive today? I love Splash Mountain, but I realize that Disney has that choice, and that "society" is moving forward.

I mean we continue to argue over what the founding of our country meant and what the founders actually meant when they wrote a document that had no way of contemplating the world today. There will always be people and parties that seem to want to live in the past and pretend like this is the 1800's. It isn't and the future is always going to win out over the history and past. That is just kinda how it works...
You know who cares if Mr. Potato head is gone... that would be Mrs. Potato Head.

I agree that there were all sorts of wrongs of the past and I support efforts to improve equality for all. There have been all sorts of wonderful advances in the past 20 years. But there have also been suppression of biological nature of genders as well and are completely divergent from our natural inclinations. Groups have come out against contact sports because they are too aggressive. Groups have come out against Barbee Dolls because they promote an unnational image of femininity. There are people look down upon those who drive lifted trucks or high powered sports cars.
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
15,230
Points
59
You know who cares if Mr. Potato head is gone... that would be Mrs. Potato Head.

I agree that there were all sorts of wrongs of the past and I support efforts to improve equality for all. There have been all sorts of wonderful advances in the past 20 years. But there have also been suppression of biological nature of genders as well and are completely divergent from our natural inclinations. Groups have come out against contact sports because they are too aggressive. Groups have come out against Barbee Dolls because they promote an unnational image of femininity. There are people look down upon those who drive lifted trucks or high powered sports cars.
And people that look down on socialists and people wanting to impose their own subjective opinions on others...left, right, center.

Your opinion is clearly understood, so given your apparent outrage, what solutions do you have or propose personally or for society...or should we just keep yelling into the void and/or past each other?
 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
15,481
Points
53
Back in our day we loved artists doing risky things on TV. Now risky has a higher bar and more tolerance. So we all need to stop yelling get off my lawn and it's too loud.
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,313
Points
59
You know who cares if Mr. Potato head is gone... that would be Mrs. Potato Head.

I agree that there were all sorts of wrongs of the past and I support efforts to improve equality for all. There have been all sorts of wonderful advances in the past 20 years. But there have also been suppression of biological nature of genders as well and are completely divergent from our natural inclinations. Groups have come out against contact sports because they are too aggressive. Groups have come out against Barbee Dolls because they promote an unnational image of femininity. There are people look down upon those who drive lifted trucks or high powered sports cars.
Why does Mrs. Potato Head care? She probably has lots of other Mrs. Potato Heads that make her just as happy.

Is your anger towards the divergence of gender and sexual identity? I promise you that I have issues with a lot of those things, mostly in my own comfort with them. But I also try and make it clear that my misunderstanding, or confusion, or even lack of agreement in some cases, does not slow down the world we live in... and truthfully it shouldn't. I can't understand what I don't live. I only understand one world view, and that is my own. You can explain yours and someone who may fit into one of the categories it seems you have some uncomfort with can explain theirs, and yet, I will still live my world view, now with more information.

I guess my point on all of this is that we should just all accept that the world moves forward whether we try and make it stop or not. Progress is progressive, not conservative, almost always. Providing more freedom, and more rights, and more protections generally is more progressive than banning things because you are scare of them.

I think the difficulty I have with the argument you are making is that you are not suggesting that we go back to the past (as you have noted that the past had lots of wrongs), but you are also not willing to accept we are moving to the future. So what then?
 

Gedunker

Moderating
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
11,780
Points
46
I remember being 9 or 10 (c 1970) and seeing my first interracial couple, with their mixed-race child and my mother whispering the kid was called a "mulatto". Now nobody thinks twice about such couples or their kids.

I remember never seeing a disabled person, or a wheelchair curb cut, or a curb ramp, or Braille signage for a major chunk of my life. Now I get miffed if I see some idiot block an handicap access aisle.

I remember when "gay" simply meant happy. Now, hardly anybody thinks twice about LGBTQ proximate to the mainstream, if not in it.

My point is we've come a long way in my 60 years, but there's still a damn lot longer to go to make sure everybody that is entitled to the franchise, has their fair share of it.
 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
15,481
Points
53
It's a potato head doll. Kids don't care about gender. Only adults with agendas teach kids about gender separation and gender rolls. Kids just like sticking funny eyes and mouth combinations in a potato. It's not like it has genitals.
 

WSU MUP Student

Cyburbian
Messages
11,081
Points
52
It's a potato head doll. Kids don't care about gender. Only adults with agendas teach kids about gender separation and gender rolls. Kids just like sticking funny eyes and mouth combinations in a potato. It's not like it has genitals.

And DVD's spent a lot of time looking!
 

MD Planner

Cyburbian
Messages
2,932
Points
47
While you guys are arguing about Mr. Potato Head and Dr. Seuss I'm going to go hang out with some gamer kids and play Grand Theft Auto and kill some hookers. :r: :r: :r: :r: :r: :r: :r:
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
15,230
Points
59
While you guys are arguing about Mr. Potato Head and Dr. Seuss I'm going to go hang out with some gamer kids and play Grand Theft Auto and kill some hookers. :r: :r: :r: :r: :r: :r: :r:
Don't worry. Tipper Gore already tried 'cancelling' the cool stuff in the early 1990s.

All she really did was put giant 'Look At Me, I Have The Cool Stuff Here' stickers on all the cool media for us.

Didn't stop my 15 yr old brother buying GnR's Appettite for Destruction on cassette. Just made it easy to find in the display rack. :D
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,313
Points
59
While you guys are arguing about Mr. Potato Head and Dr. Seuss I'm going to go hang out with some gamer kids and play Grand Theft Auto and kill some hookers. :r: :r: :r: :r: :r: :r: :r:
Just so we are all on the same page, killing hookers in GTA 5 is pointless. If you really want to get back the $100 there are much more efficient ways to make it in GTA 5, it was just something that a lot people wanted to grab onto.

Get into real estate in GTA 5 and you will never need to kill a hooker again! ;)
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,706
Points
56
Why does Mrs. Potato Head care? She probably has lots of other Mrs. Potato Heads that make her just as happy.

Is your anger towards the divergence of gender and sexual identity? I promise you that I have issues with a lot of those things, mostly in my own comfort with them. But I also try and make it clear that my misunderstanding, or confusion, or even lack of agreement in some cases, does not slow down the world we live in... and truthfully it shouldn't. I can't understand what I don't live. I only understand one world view, and that is my own. You can explain yours and someone who may fit into one of the categories it seems you have some uncomfort with can explain theirs, and yet, I will still live my world view, now with more information.

I guess my point on all of this is that we should just all accept that the world moves forward whether we try and make it stop or not. Progress is progressive, not conservative, almost always. Providing more freedom, and more rights, and more protections generally is more progressive than banning things because you are scare of them.

I think the difficulty I have with the argument you are making is that you are not suggesting that we go back to the past (as you have noted that the past had lots of wrongs), but you are also not willing to accept we are moving to the future. So what then?

I typed up several responses, and I realized that no matter what I typed, someone was going to be offended. And that, is the problem.

More so I don't think some of this is progress. How eliminating Mr. Potato Head's gender progress?

I think it is demasculinization of American society in a delusional effort to be Woke. Equality should not be about the suppression of one thing, but it should be about raising something else up. Instead you have idiots saying that Eminem is too violent and should be canceled, and Bill Gates is preaching that it is wrong to eat real meat. We live in a society where trade labor jobs and working with your hands is looked down upon, guns are vilified instead of the shooter, and children are discouraged from playing contact sports. But everyone gets the same participation trophy and people who show up to work feel they should be entitled to the maximum raise possible, even if they put in minimal effort.

In terms of so what then... I will continue being me, and when something is stupid, I will call it stupid.
 

DVD

Cyburbian
Messages
15,481
Points
53
Next thing you know someone will complain about WAP being performed on TV.

Live and let live. It doesn't really effect me.
 

Hink

OH....IO
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
16,313
Points
59
I typed up several responses, and I realized that no matter what I typed, someone was going to be offended. And that, is the problem.

More so I don't think some of this is progress. How eliminating Mr. Potato Head's gender progress?

I think it is demasculinization of American society in a delusional effort to be Woke. Equality should not be about the suppression of one thing, but it should be about raising something else up. Instead you have idiots saying that Eminem is too violent and should be canceled, and Bill Gates is preaching that it is wrong to eat real meat. We live in a society where trade labor jobs and working with your hands is looked down upon, guns are vilified instead of the shooter, and children are discouraged from playing contact sports. But everyone gets the same participation trophy and people who show up to work feel they should be entitled to the maximum raise possible, even if they put in minimal effort.

In terms of so what then... I will continue being me, and when something is stupid, I will call it stupid.
Being offend is a problem that you and I agree on. People get hurt too easily. I will say though that a lot of that is the length at which they have been hurt by things. Are Indian's offended that their likeness is used as a mascot, or have they been hurt for years by its use and only now are we doing something about it?

Our society most certainly needs de-masculization. I mean we have lived for a long time with odd rules about what men and women should or shouldn't do. So because gender doesn't really matter in almost 95% of things it is only woke to discuss that? How is removing Mr. Potato Head's gender suppression of men? Because they aren't taking away Mrs. Potato Head?

I agree with you that cancel culture is troubling. I believe strongly that if we agree that people should get second chances (here's looking at those who have a strong feeling on prison reform, death penalty, etc.), than cancel culture is hypocritical. Everyone is on a constant learning curve. We all make mistakes. We also disagree. Sometimes on fundamental things. You should have the right to be wrong. But as social and societal discourse moves forward, we have to understand that even if we disagree, there is going to be a progressive shift forward.

I also enjoy participation trophies. I have never seen a kid sad when they get a trophy. As someone who has "won" a lot in life, I certainly don't believe extra trophies are the problem. Parents who put the pressure of the world on their 3rd grade kid to win a soccer game that doesn't matter does WAY more harm to that kid than a participation trophy ever will.
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
14,039
Points
57
The San Antonio wax museum had to moved the tRump exhibit because he was repeatedly being punched in the face by patrons. :roflmao:
 

The Terminator

Cyburbian
Messages
1,720
Points
24
While we argue about Dr Seuss and Mr. Potato Head, racist violence happens once again and now its just sadly normalized.

Cancel Culture is a liberal psy-op to distract us from the larger economic and social problems of our moribund empire.

Rest in Power to all the victims of the Georgia spa shootings.

Make Racists Afraid Again!
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,706
Points
56
162827853_4368904019803609_6464042874586133570_o.jpg


While we argue about Dr Seuss and Mr. Potato Head, racist violence happens once again and now its just sadly normalized.

Cancel Culture is a liberal psy-op to distract us from the larger economic and social problems of our moribund empire.

Cancel Culture is about a bunch of people who spend more time whining about things than actually making a difference. What difference does the potato's gender have when it comes to racism or violence. None. It is people being stupid by demanding that his gender be removed.
 

Planit

Cyburbian
Messages
14,039
Points
57

This is gold...

Damn, ya beat me to it!

A defense of "Why would anyone believe something that stupid" is better than Steve Martin's "I forgot" routine. So everytime these guys go to court they say it was a lie, but out in the open public they keep saying it. Kinda makes you wanna say "Huh?"
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,706
Points
56
And here we go again...


Just the mention of it has caused my local ammo provider to sell out of some calibers in a matter of hours.

However, one thing that I don't see in here is an actual ban, or definition, of assault weapons. I would support expanded background checks as noted, and the ban on high capacity magazines would depend on what they say is high capacity.

One thing that is disappointing though is they are not calling for increased funding and resources for mental health services. Early indications say that the shooter was a very troubled individual. Knowing first hand on the difficulties and issues associated with mental health services, I can honestly say that they are inadequate on the best day, and catastrophic the rest of the time. I truly believe that persons like this will go on to hurt people regardless of what tools are available. This person should not have had access to any weapon and instead should have had access to services to help address the apparent issues.
 
Top