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The NEVERENDING Political Discussion Thread

Maister

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I take issue with the sort of false equivalence you hear mskis and others use. That is, Trump and Clinton are both awful, don't vote for either.

There is a gulf of difference between the two candidates in this case. Say what you like about Clinton, but there's no question about her ability to govern - she knows how to drive the car. Trump, on the other hand, is a dangerously poor choice with little apparent grasp of the problems we face or the complex solutions needed to address them. Combine that with the psychological instability/fragility we've seen from this guy on several occasions and one begins to see how he presents a threat to our democracy both internationally and domestically.
 

Bubba

Cyburbian
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I take issue with the sort of false equivalence you hear mskis and others use. That is, Trump and Clinton are both awful, don't vote for either.
I've had this debate on another board - I think your general characterization of the "don't vote for either" position as an equivalence (false or otherwise) is slightly off. They both suck as choices for President, but for very different reasons.

Anyhoo, the archaic electoral college system makes the decision not to vote for either in some states (like Georgia) easy - it doesn't matter who I vote for, this state's electoral college votes are going to Trump. Personally, I'm writing in Herschel Walker (the greatest American EVER) for President.
 

gtpeach

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I've done a ton of research on both candidates. I admit I started out biased in favor of Clinton, but I've tried to research most of the claims against her in an effort to be fair. The more research I've done, the fewer concerns I have about her. I am amazed that Clinton is being named as the more untrustworthy candidate. No, she is not forthright about a lot of things, and there are some issues with her that are legitimate, but that I believe have been blown way out of proportion. Just because Trump says whatever's on his mind doesn't mean he is trustworthy, but it seems like the two are often conflated.

It's clear that Clinton knows what she's talking about, has put a lot of thought into her policy positions and plans. Granted, some more than others. And she took the debate seriously enough to do a lot of prep work for it. I think she accomplished exactly what she needed to. She remained calm and composed in the face of Trump's interruptions and insults, she had a sense of humor, and she came across as very down-to-earth and grounded. That's exactly the performance she needed to give to start improving her image with voters, specifically undecided voters.

Now, you may not like her policies, and that's completely understandable. But I feel like she'll be an effective president should she win the election in November.
 
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I take issue with the sort of false equivalence you hear mskis and others use. That is, Trump and Clinton are both awful, don't vote for either.

There is a gulf of difference between the two candidates in this case. Say what you like about Clinton, but there's no question about her ability to govern - she knows how to drive the car. Trump, on the other hand, is a dangerously poor choice with little apparent grasp of the problems we face or the complex solutions needed to address them. Combine that with the psychological instability/fragility we've seen from this guy on several occasions and one begins to see how he presents a threat to our democracy both internationally and domestically.
I've had this debate on another board - I think your general characterization of the "don't vote for either" position as an equivalence (false or otherwise) is slightly off. They both suck as choices for President, but for very different reasons.

Anyhoo, the archaic electoral college system makes the decision not to vote for either in some states (like Georgia) easy - it doesn't matter who I vote for, this state's electoral college votes are going to Trump. Personally, I'm writing in Herschel Walker (the greatest American EVER) for President.
I've done a ton of research on both candidates. I admit I started out biased in favor of Clinton, but I've tried to research most of the claims against her in an effort to be fair. The more research I've done, the fewer concerns I have about her. I am amazed that Clinton is being named as the more untrustworthy candidate. No, she is not forthright about a lot of things, and there are some issues with her that are legitimate, but that I believe have been blown way out of proportion. Just because Trump says whatever's on his mind doesn't mean he is trustworthy, but it seems like the two are often conflated.

It's clear that Clinton knows what she's talking about, has put a lot of thought into her policy positions and plans. Granted, some more than others. And she took the debate seriously enough to do a lot of prep work for it. I think she accomplished exactly what she needed to. She remained calm and composed in the face of Trump's interruptions and insults, she had a sense of humor, and she came across as very down-to-earth and grounded. That's exactly the performance she needed to give to start improving her image with voters, specifically undecided voters.

Now, you may not like her policies, and that's completely understandable. But I feel like she'll be an effective president should she win the election in November.




My grandfather was a truck driver and I rode with him a few times. Does not mean that I know how to drive a truck. Moreso, it does not mean that I would be good at it either.

The number 1 reason that I don't like her is because of her policies.
Her economic policies are wrong (LINK)

Her foreign relation policies are dangerious
Her gun policies are horrible and will become overley restrictive for good people while bad people will continue to get illegal guns (like the guy who was shot and killed in Charlotte)
And too many of her policies are business as usual despite what the Constitution says the federal government can do.

The second reason is she can't be trusted. She has a long trail of scandal behind her with an increasing body count of people who were closely associated with her and ended up dead.


Everything you said about trump is true...


Therefore, they both suck and you really need to ask yourself, do i want to be responsible for the chaos that will occur over the next 4 years when I vote for either of these people?

Send both parties a message. I don't care which 3rd party person you vote for. Seriously, I don't. But if enough people vote for someone else, DC will take notice.
 

Hink

OH....IO
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I had to laugh last night. It was painful TV. Trump is really one of the worst candidates in the history of politics. His ignorance and inability to answer direct questions is amazing. Clinton certainly wasn't great, but Trump was world away in whatever universe he is living in.

But just watch Fox News and ask Sean Hannity, Trump won. ;)
 

dvdneal

Cyburbian
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I've had this debate on another board - I think your general characterization of the "don't vote for either" position as an equivalence (false or otherwise) is slightly off. They both suck as choices for President, but for very different reasons.

Anyhoo, the archaic electoral college system makes the decision not to vote for either in some states (like Georgia) easy - it doesn't matter who I vote for, this state's electoral college votes are going to Trump. Personally, I'm writing in Herschel Walker (the greatest American EVER) for President.
I've never been a fan of the electoral college system since watching Ross Perot make a failed attempt at a third party. What makes anyone think Johnson will do better? He's already lost a handful of state who are bound to vote for their party. His only chance is winning the other handful that go by popular vote and that ain't gonna happen. Although I understand the sentiment. These have to be some of the worst candidates we've seen in a long time. Trump gets smacked around like an oompa loompa when no one is looking and the other is just a big bundle of baggage, but at least she knows the rules of the game. Hilldog might not be my favorite, but Trump +o:)v:.

My favorite after debate quote from some random old lady, "I'm voting the conservative party and if that jackass is leading the mule train than that's who I'll vote for." Which says so much about what's wrong with 'Merica today.
 
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I've never been a fan of the electoral college system since watching Ross Perot make a failed attempt at a third party. What makes anyone think Johnson will do better? He's already lost a handful of state who are bound to vote for their party. His only chance is winning the other handful that go by popular vote and that ain't gonna happen. Although I understand the sentiment. These have to be some of the worst candidates we've seen in a long time. Trump gets smacked around like an oompa loompa when no one is looking and the other is just a big bundle of baggage, but at least she knows the rules of the game. Hilldog might not be my favorite, but Trump +o:)v:.

My favorite after debate quote from some random old lady, "I'm voting the conservative party and if that jackass is leading the mule train than that's who I'll vote for." Which says so much about what's wrong with 'Merica today.
It is not just about this election. The more of the popular vote he gets, the more likely it will open up funding for future presidential elections, breaking the 2 party system. It is also a referendum on DC. Tell the WH and Congress that you are sick of politics as usual.

I don't have any pipe dreams that anyone other than Clinton will get elected. Trump stands zero chance of beating her. But it does not mean that people should vote for either of them. There is enough of the party status quo that that she will get elected, we will be screwed, but if her vote count is low enough, it might rattle enough people to realize that we as a society can do better.

Seriously, unless you think that they will do an awesome job, (which I could have further comments about, but that would result in me getting flagged for personal attacks), vote for someone else who won't get elected.
 
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I didn't watch the debate but I read the transcript this morning.

I have come to the conclusion that Trump is either mentally retarded or was suffering a stroke throughout the entirety of the debate. His inability to string together a coherent sentence is astounding.
 

Maister

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My grandfather was a truck driver and I rode with him a few times. Does not mean that I know how to drive a truck. Moreso, it does not mean that I would be good at it either.
To continue with this delightful analogy, I guess we could say that Hillary has at least driven a van (in the Senate and as Sec of State) and rode in the truck all the while Bill was in office. Trump by contrast has the equivalent experience of driving a pogo stick in his driveway. I'll take the driver who has experience behind the wheel and knows the rules of the road even if they've been pulled over in the past for speeding.

I have come to the conclusion that Trump is either mentally retarded or was suffering a stroke throughout the entirety of the debate. His inability to string together a coherent sentence is astounding.
Sadly, that fact didn't prevent someone else from getting elected not too long ago.
 
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Sadly, that fact didn't prevent someone else from getting elected not too long ago.
I've been avoiding watching debates and state of the union addresses and other big policy speeches/proposals for years and always read the transcripts instead. Trump's ramblings are on a level I have never seen before.

On a slightly related note - I love, and have always loved, politics. But I came to the conclusion a couple cycles ago that it's not candidate A or party B that I love, it's the political process, the election apparatus, the polling numbers, surveys, demographic shifts, etc. that really interests me.
 

AG74683

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I have come to the conclusion that Trump is either mentally retarded
Interestingly, this is the same conclusion Zach Galifianakis came to regarding Trump. This is why he will not be featured on Between Two Ferns. He would feel like he was taking advantage of him. If you haven't seen the one with Clinton, it's worth a watch. She handled herself well, but no where near as great as Obama.
 

dvdneal

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It is not just about this election. The more of the popular vote he gets, the more likely it will open up funding for future presidential elections, breaking the 2 party system. It is also a referendum on DC. Tell the WH and Congress that you are sick of politics as usual.

I don't have any pipe dreams that anyone other than Clinton will get elected. Trump stands zero chance of beating her. But it does not mean that people should vote for either of them. There is enough of the party status quo that that she will get elected, we will be screwed, but if her vote count is low enough, it might rattle enough people to realize that we as a society can do better.

Seriously, unless you think that they will do an awesome job, (which I could have further comments about, but that would result in me getting flagged for personal attacks), vote for someone else who won't get elected.
The pessimist side of me says voting third party won't send a message. Perot did great as a third party and no one got the message. For my own state I think voting democrat might send a message that this current governor and legislature are crap and it needs to change. Voting independent (or whoever) won't get that message across.

The optimist side of me hopes both parties look at this election and decide to rework how they do things. Start grooming a candidate who's worth a damn. FYI, Ted Cruz is not that candidate. Find someone new who isn't screwed up like the last 19-20 people who ran on the GOP ticket. On the Dem side, obviously you'll run Hill for full 8 years, but you can start looking for that ideal candidate now.
 

Maister

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Concerning the debate and evaluating respective performances, when considering Trump I kept having flashbacks to the end scene of Bill & Teds Excellent Adventure where the football player is giving his 'oral report' right before Bill & Ted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgAGkxAtzIg (I'm not getting sound but you remember where he's saying "it's like the, uh, future is, um going to be, um .....computers.....and, uhh.....................SAN DIMAS HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL RULES!!"
 

AG74683

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This just in...."I'll get great people" is not a plan.
It's not a plan, but in certain cases it might be a step in the right direction (although Trump's people will be similarly unqualified). We have people in appointed positions who know nothing about what the position actually deals with. I always point to Anthony Foxx, who has very little in the way of transportation expertise. In fact, the one time he did work for anything even remotely related to transportation (a hybrid bus manufacturer) they sued him for failure to do the work he was supposed to. In some cases, we get lucky and someone who honestly deserves the position and has experience gets put in place (Sally Jewell, Shaun Donovan, Ernest Moniz). Too often we get lawyers in cabinet positions, which is fine, but there's more to it than just knowing the law.

Too often, people expect the President to have the answers for everything, and neglect to realize that his advisers are truly the ones who makes a great presidency. Really, the role of the President is exactly that, to get the best people for the job.

That said, Trump is a complete dingbat. I am convinced that by the end of the election he will have referred to Clinton as a *female dog* during at least one debate.
 
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