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The Second American Civil War?

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,699
Points
24
Rumpy Tuna said:
Thats both parties for you, but I think this administration has really tried to roll back others accomplishment, I.E. Roe Vs. Wade.

Exactly, but no party or movement is EVER successful at turning all things they dislike to the way they are. On the news at lunch, 8 gay couples won thier suit out east arguing for recognized same sex unions. What they are not saying on the news is that (Masachusettes?) the court has given the state 6 months to fix the state constitution on its own, before they step in. If you are the GOP, you now have to shout from the rooftops that you are trying to deprive US citizens of rights. My prediction, the GOP bites the bullet and looses. It takes effort and social capital to acomplish a rollback, something that may be better spent elsewhere.

AH, THE WHEELS OF CHANGE GRIND THE BONES OF ALL BENEATH THEM! BWA AHA AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH :)
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
Mastiff said:
87 billion for Iraq... with about 20 billion for "rebuilding, right? Well, I don't know about you folks, but my state and city need funding, too! I have water, sewer, and street projects to do for U.S. CITIZENS!

Yeah, DAMN straight - 'Murican money is fer 'Muricans. 9.9
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
Well actually, the billions of dollars are for American citizens-if you happen to be an executive or shareholder of Halliburton and the like :) I'm sure Houston will see some nice economic spinoffs from the war efforts.
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,463
Points
25
Mastiff said:
87 billion for Iraq... with about 20 billion for "rebuilding, right? Well, I don't know about you folks, but my state and city need funding, too! I have water, sewer, and street projects to do for U.S. CITIZENS!

Now, let's just take the "rebuilding" money. That'd be $68.35 per person, making my city amount $216,806. I could use that... If we had the whole 87 billion, that's 4x the amount, or close to a million dollars for my tiny city.

Hey Congress, wake the hell up!

I second the motion. If my city had that money (and if the damn politicians knew how to run a city) then we wouldn't need a control board.
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
Messages
1,547
Points
24
Seems I always reference some historical parallel in discussions like this. I got another one.

Currently in a Second Civil War? No way. But I think we are in a period of divisiveness, transition and political instability not unlike the 1850's, just prior to the Civil War.

Chet was onto something when he mentioned the Whig Party. The Whigs of the 1850's were trying to straddle the fence between their Yankee businessmen supporters, Midwestern farmers and moderate Southern segregationists. That kind of coalition was unable to hold up during that time, and the Whigs collapsed. The brand new Republican Party (center-left at that time) filled the void, and did what the Democrats (solidly right at that time) were unable to do -- fight for the preservation of the Union.

If there is an economic collapse, similar to what Paul Krugman describes in his new book, The Great Unraveling (see these Amazon reviews for a description), there may be civil disturbances that would could become tantamount to a civil war.
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
BKM said:
Well actually, the billions of dollars are for American citizens-if you happen to be an executive or shareholder of Halliburton and the like :) I'm sure Houston will see some nice economic spinoffs from the war efforts.

God, how tedious. You'd better watch it, or the Zombie Halliburton Army will come and get you!
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
pete-rock said:
If there is an economic collapse, similar to what Paul Krugman describes in his new book, The Great Unraveling (see these Amazon reviews for a description), there may be civil disturbances that would could become tantamount to a civil war.

Pete-rock, if anything Paul Krugman ever describes comes to pass, we won't have to worry because the second coming won't be far behind.
 

Wulf9

Member
Messages
922
Points
22
El Feo said:
if anything Paul Krugman ever describes comes to pass, we won't have to worry because the second coming won't be far behind.

Get out the vestments. I think Paul Krugman once wrote a piece about Iraq becoming a quagmire. (Don't have it in hand, but every liberal columnist has written at least one such column.)
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
Messages
1,547
Points
24
Two more points. I don't think it's entirely accurate to say the Democratic Party is "held hostage" (no one's quotes, just a euphemism) to the Far Left. Sure, Al Sharpton and Dennis Kucinich may be the furthest left of the current candidates, but their constituency is a small minority. And Carol Moseley-Braun is not what I would call an extremist from the Left.

Wulf9 said:
Actually, the reason there is so much conservative talk radio is that radio is a "subsidized" media. It is subsidized by a Federal agency giving national monopoly (okay, oligopoly) to a few major corporations. Since they tend to be conservative the government subsidy gives us conservative talk radio.

Conservative talk radio is successful because for one reason -- it is good entertainment. It's good entertainment because these hosts have little ambiguity to their views. The views expressed are generally black/white, with little regard to the gray areas in-between. And that works very well in the ten-minute segment, "let's take some calls" format that is AM radio. The Left (or more accurately, the center-left) has the kind of nuance that sounds wishy-washy to those with firm views, either Left or Right.
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
Messages
1,547
Points
24
I say "Paul Krugman," and El Feo and Wulf9 immediately seek to discredit his work and commentary. Does anyone else see the irony in this?

I don't pretend to suggest that Paul Krugman is the preeminent authority on all economic policy. But saying he has no merit is just plain wrong.
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
pete-rock said:
I say "Paul Krugman," and El Feo and Wulf9 immediately seek to discredit his work and commentary. Does anyone else see the irony in this?

I don't pretend to suggest that Paul Krugman is the preeminent authority on all economic policy. But saying he has no merit is just plain wrong.

I don't discredit his work and commentary, pete-rock - Krugman's own blinders do. He used to present fairly reasoned arguments. Now, he just hates Bush - period - and hell with the facts (7.2% growth, 100,000 jobs created in the last month, etc.). Whatever Bush et al do is wrong. Period. He no longer has any more merit than Michael Moore, Ann Coulter or any other of similar ilk.

I think you misunderstood Wulf9 - far from "discrediting" Krugman, he seems to agree with him that Iraq is a "quagmire" based on the actions of dissaffected Baathists and jihadis operating in 15% of an otherwise rapidly improving country - at least in the eyes of most Iraqis.
 

Wulf9

Member
Messages
922
Points
22
I didn't discredit Paul Krugman. All of the liberals commentators were right in predicting the quagmire. I thought most people would recognize that from the facts on the ground. I probably shouldn't have added a joke at the end.
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
Wulf9 said:
I didn't discredit Paul Krugman. All of the liberals commentators were right in predicting the quagmire. I thought most people would recognize that from the facts on the ground. I probably shouldn't have added a joke at the end.

What f'ing quagmire? Wishing it's so doesn't make it so...
 

gkmo62u

Cyburbian
Messages
1,046
Points
24
I'll discredit Krugman then. He is no longer an economist, just a rapid anti-bushie writing in a very leftist editorial page.

I was trying to be nice and reasonable earlier, but the arguements from you guys get more hysterical by the minute.

BKM stop with the Halliburton conspiracy bullshit. You are fing laughable.

Fine, end the thread.

We hate you and you hate us. Let the division continue.

Pete-maybe the other reason talk radio is popular is because alot of people are actually conservative.

Tedious is right El Feo.
 

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,699
Points
24
gkmo62u said:
.......Fine, end the thread. We hate you and you hate us. Let the division continue........

This is why it is best if one party does not EVER have complete control over the government. Mutual unhapiness is better than half being perfectly happy while the rest are smoldering to violence in anger. At least when all are unhapy, it means that nobody has thier own way. AND THAT, is about as good as DEMOCRACY in whatever its form, can get!

:)
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
BKM stop with the Halliburton conspiracy bullshit. You are fing laughable.

Geez, I was just kidding.

Although, maybe I shouldn't dismiss my own little jab so easily? After all, war profiteering has a long and illustrious history in this country. But, heaven forbid I be "laughable."
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,589
Points
34
MOD NOTE: This has been a great civil discourse. Lets keep it that way please.
 

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,699
Points
24
BKM said:
......war profiteering has a long and illustrious history in this country.......


You got that wrong BKM! War profiteering has a long and illustrious history, PERIOD! :)

best summed up in the Ferengi Rules of aquisition :)

Rule 034 » War is good for business.
Rule 035 » Peace is good for business.
 

Budgie

Cyburbian
Messages
5,262
Points
30
Let's continue this discussion after about 3 hours of drinking at the next National APA conference. Doesn't that sound like a great idea. We can also discuss gun control.
 

gkmo62u

Cyburbian
Messages
1,046
Points
24
BKm I don't think you are kidding. Many of your comments are tempered with these sorts of allegations.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
"allegations" is quite a word.

I really, truly was. I will use smiley emoticons from now on.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,069
Points
34
gkmo62u said:
BKm I don't think you are kidding. Many of your comments are tempered with these sorts of allegations.

Kidding or not, perhaps there is some truth to his comments. I have a problem with any company getting a multi-million dollar, no-bid contract. That concern is compounded when the particular company has close ties to people in the administration.

I would never argue that Bush is or may be doing things that many other politicians from both parties have done, in rewarding his supporters. [sarcasm]Of course, Bill Clinton was not one to trade or give away favors to his cronies.[/sarcasm] It is right that people question their government and their leaders, whether you support them or not. Only a fool would not do so.
 

gkmo62u

Cyburbian
Messages
1,046
Points
24
ok BKM I have regained my sanity.

You have made me laugh now and I appreciate it.

I like to use the qualifier "quite" to subtly dig folks as well--as in 'that's quite a haircut"

Talk to you tomorrow. I have to finish up here and go home to the family.


Budgie-- I agree and will be at the conference as I live down here in NVA. We'll maybe I'll skip the conferene and meet you guys at the bar.

g
 

pete-rock

Cyburbian
Messages
1,547
Points
24
gkmo62u said:
We hate you and you hate us. Let the division continue.

You know, if the divisions are truly that stark, maybe a civil "revolution" of some sort is inevitable.

Pity our nation.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
Oh, I don't know. Compared with a lot of nation states, I doubt our divisions are that sharp.

BUT, Sometimes I wonder, though.

My concern is the theological divide, not so much the issues we debate on this thread. El Guapo and even gkmo62 and I can resolve to disagee on issues like gun ownership or government regulations. I wonder if I can ever even talk civilly with the more scary type of fundamentalist. Our electorate in Vacaville chose a school board candidate who thinks the world is 6,000 years old and the Bible needs to be taught in public kindergarten. The other side would argue that I am a doomed secular skeptic.

Looking around, theology seems to be the biggest source of division in many cultures.
 

Wulf9

Member
Messages
922
Points
22
El Feo said:
What f'ing quagmire? Wishing it's so doesn't make it so...

I don't wish for a quagmire. i don't hope to see more deaths to prove that the invasion was wrong.

My wish, several months ago, was that we would listen to the doubts about WMD and terrorist connections in Iraq and spend some more time on diplomacy. Given the information the administratin had in hand it was a very realistic goal. It is now very obvious t that Iraq was not an immediate threat to the U.S. So we had some time. There are a lot of intermediate steps a powerful nation can take short of war. We may have had to invade if negotiation and pressure failed. But then again, we might not have, or we may have been able to assemble a true coalition. It is possible that the American and British soldiers killed or wounded would not have been put at risk, the Iraqi soldiers and civilians killed by Americans would not have been killed by Americans, and that the $300 billion hole in the budget would have been a fraction of the cost to date. I see that as a wish worth supporting.
 
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Wannaplan?

Ready to Learn
Messages
3,255
Points
31
pete-rock said:
I don't pretend to suggest that Paul Krugman is the preeminent authority on all economic policy. But saying he has no merit is just plain wrong.

I like Krugman. I remembering reading his op/ed pieces in the NYTimes in 1999 where he continuously warned of an impending stock market correction. I'm not saying he is an oracle, just pointing out that the man knows a thing or two about how economies work. Love him or hate him, he is still worth reading.

Because of his article in the NYTimes magazine from about a month ago (yes, it was in there (cover story) to shamefully plug his new book, but a compelling read nonetheless), I now have a new phrase in my vocabulary - "Starve-The-Beasters" - the anti-tax conservatives who don't give a damn about anyone else except for themselves, their paychecks, and the returns on their Roth IRAs.
 
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