• Ongoing coronavirus / COVID-19 discussion: how is the pandemic affecting your community, workplace, and wellness? 🦠

    Working from home? So are we. Come join us! Cyburbia is a friendly big tent, where we share our experiences and thoughts about urban planning practice, planning adjacent topics, and whatever else comes to mind. No ads, no spam, no social distancing.

This is sad and disturbing

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
Im flabergasted that the local GOP folks would knowingly let that stand for "months". Islam nor any major religious group is about hate-not anymore than the Catholics and the crusades.

*sigh*

Bush is all up in arms about Iraq and we have a much larger problem with N Korea brewing.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Narrow Minded Southerners! Oh wait - that was almost as bad! ;)

Seriously - It's on par with Senator Lott as far as I'm concerned.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,993
Points
30
I'll bite.

While it is obviously wrong to place that on their website - I know a bunch of Moslems personally and I am truly underwhelmed by their uniformly meager outpouring of support on a variety of issues that all humanity is dealing with. Somebody had to say it. Now I'm off to Al Jazeera to apologize!
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
And I'll bite on the Bush-baiting.

Bush is all up in arms about Iraq and we have a much larger problem with N Korea brewing.
North Korea=nuclear power run by doddering madman. (Gee, thanks Bill J. Clinton and Jimmah Cahtah!)

Iraq=aspiring nuclear power run by doddering madman. (Gee, thanks useless Bush I and Colin Powell!)

IMHO, gotta make sure the horse that's in the barn's locked in there, before we go chasing after the one that's already out.

In other words, one rogue nation at a time. Though I have no doubt the world'll bitch incoherently when we deal with that one, too.
 

Wannaplan?

Galactic Superstar
Messages
3,192
Points
28
Typical Republican engaging in religion-baiting. Of course, Democrats are just as stupid when it comes to mixing religion and politics. But they aren't crass enough to put something like that on a website.
 

gkmo62u

Cyburbian
Messages
1,046
Points
24
I'll bite too

Are we going to deny that there are a great many of those who worship this religion do in fact hate us, the freedom's we stand for, and wish to end our way of life at any opportunity.

IMO that makes them evil.

Someone want to point out to me the Great Islamic Democracy?


I didn't think so.
 

Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
18,472
Points
69
Re: I'll bite too

gkmo62u said:
Someone want to point out to me the Great Islamic Democracy?
Turkey.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Re: I'll bite too

gkmo62u said:
Someone want to point out to me the Great Islamic Democracy?B]


Elbonia. Don't forget Elbonia.
 
Messages
3,690
Points
27
Re: I'll bite too

gkmo62u said:
Are we going to deny that there are a great many of those who worship this religion do in fact hate us, the freedom's we stand for, and wish to end our way of life at any opportunity.

IMO that makes them evil.

Someone want to point out to me the Great Islamic Democracy?


I didn't think so.
George - There are people of every kind of creed and religion that hate us, our government and our way of life. Was it Pat Robertson, or one of his ilk, that said 9/11 was a punishment to the US for our immoral way of life? You can't just paint a broad brush against the muslims because of the radical and horrible actions an extremist group.
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
A vocal minority make things hell for a whole group of folks that by in large are not out to hate anyone.

if we blindly hate we are just as "guilty" as anyone else.

thats whats "sad"
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Re: Re: I'll bite too

KMateja said:
You can't just paint a broad brush against the muslims because of the radical and horrible actions an extremist group.
Agreed. You can't categorize the citizens of the USA as evil because of people like Timothy McVeigh, the Unabomber, and Donald Rumsfeld.
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
Re: Re: I'll bite too

Dan said:
Not to pick at nits, but Turkey is a democracy with a majority Islamic population, not an "Islamic democracy." Their 1996 elections caused a bit of a furor because though Turkey has traditionally been ardently and conspicuously secularist, self-proclaimed "Islamic traditionalists" of the Islamic Virtue Party (whose stated goal is imposition of sharia law) won 20% of the vote. Now, the Turkish courts have moved to shut the party down, and have had the ban upheld by the EU. They are SERIOUS about shielding the government from political Islam.

I think George's point is that there's no such thing as an "Islamic state" that's a democracy.
 

gkmo62u

Cyburbian
Messages
1,046
Points
24
Let me clarify before you throw me to the wolves.

Dan: Point taken on Turkey. My point obviously is that its not exactly a long list.

Kel/PG: At no point did I say I hate Muslims or believers of Islam. Do you remember after 9/11? Mass demonstrations in Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, West Bank--thousands upon thousands of people celebrating the worst day in our history.

Is the radical element still "radical" when it represents more than a small number?

BTurk: Low blow on the Donald Rumsfeld thing. He may a other things, but evil? Don't think that's accurrate.

Sorry to be so cemented on this one, but no hoping for peace love and understanding will replace the facts: The dictatorial Islamic states of the middle east represent the single greatest threat to our way of life.

And by saying that, it does not mean I hate all Muslims.
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,181
Points
30
Several websites I've read quote these passages to show that the Qu'ran does not believe in the things the "militant" Muslims do...

"Fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. Allah does not love transgressors." (Quran 2:190)

"If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in Allah for He is the One that heareth and knoweth all things." (Quran 8:61)

But if you put them in context, you might see it a bit different.

In Al Baqarah (2):

"O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. And for him who is forgiven somewhat by his (injured) brother, prosecution according to usage and payment unto him in kindness. This is an alleviation and a mercy from your Lord. He who transgresseth after this will have a painful doom."

And there is life for you in retaliation, O men of understanding, that ye may ward off (evil). (Quran 2:178-179)


In Al Anfaal (8):

"And when those who disbelieve plot against thee to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters." (Quran 8:30)

"And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do." (Quran 8:39)

And here is the verse before 61, about "seeking peace"...

"Make ready for them all thou canst of force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged." (Quran 8:60)

I guess it doesn't seem very clear to me. In fact, it reads like much of the Old Testament. Someone mentioned the Crusades, but would a Catholic today march to war on the orders of the Pope? And how many of you Baptists or Methodists would strap up with explosives and hop a plane because your pastor encouraged it?

Seems to me the "fundamentalists" of the western religions shoot doctors and bomb abortion clinics to save the unborn, but are generally spurned by reasonable people. It may simply be easier to gain influence over young, oppressed, poor men in middle eastern cultures... and explain that the Qu'ran expects them to kill people of the "evil empire".
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
gkmo62u said:
BTurk: Low blow on the Donald Rumsfeld thing. He may a other things, but evil? Don't think that's accurrate.
Really my point was that many people and associate our Country and the "American People" as evil because of the overall policies of the United States, and in his position, Mr. Rumsfeld is the figurehead that mouths those policies. My point was to suport Kel's statements that , You can't just paint a broad brush against the muslims because of the radical and horrible actions an extremist group. The same can be said for the American People. To those that support terrorism against the USA, we are the extremists!
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,181
Points
30
Mastiff said: I guess it doesn't seem very clear to me. In fact, it reads like much of the Old Testament.

Bturk said: Mastiff - the same can be done with The Bible!

Mastiff says: Duh!


P.S. I love the link...
 

gkmo62u

Cyburbian
Messages
1,046
Points
24
I see everybody's point.

I am just trying to prevent us from going down Moral Relativism boulevard. Who cares if "they" think we are extremists. We are not, we are right, and so is our way of life, defined by freedom and liberty.

We should not apologize ever for being Right.

Grouping Rumsfeld with the Unabomber and Tim McVeigh is just wrong.

I gotta run, everybody, good discussion.

I won't be in the office next week.

Have a safe New years.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Mastiff said:
Mastiff said: I guess it doesn't seem very clear to me. In fact, it reads like much of the Old Testament.

Bturk said: Mastiff - the same can be done with The Bible!

Mastiff says: Duh!


P.S. I love the link...
OOOPS- When I edited your quote I grabbed the wrong sentence. My bad...
 

The Irish One

Member
Messages
2,267
Points
25
Bin Laden did what he did because our military is on holy soil and Saudi gov. is a a US puppet. The whole kill America crew from arabia could care less if we watch porn all day and shoot up heroin, actually they would be very approving. Bin Laden's war is one of nationalistic purposes and of course Pan- Wahabiism for then Arabian peninsula.
 

Wannaplan?

Galactic Superstar
Messages
3,192
Points
28
gkmo62u said:
The dictatorial Islamic states of the middle east represent the single greatest threat to our way of life.
Didn't the proud leaders of the U S of A say the same thing about communism at one point prior to 1989?
 

Wannaplan?

Galactic Superstar
Messages
3,192
Points
28
The Real Axis of Evil

bturk said:


Agreed. You can't categorize the citizens of the USA as evil because of people like Timothy McVeigh, the Unabomber, and Donald Rumsfeld.
Some leftists think the real Axis of Evil is Bush-Cheney-Rumsfield-Rice.
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,181
Points
30
The Irish one said:
The whole kill America crew from arabia could care less if we watch porn all day...
Well, Bturk is safe!

Actually, TIO, I agree to some extent. I'm not exactly sure where they would draw the line on what they consider American imperialism. They might then turn toward Isreal, bases in Turkey, U.N. in Iraq... You get my point.

If you want to put it in terms of the U.S., how did we react when the U.S.S.R. decided to place missles in Cuba? Or even another country helping a polynesian movement to recoup Hawai`i?

But in my opinion, we have the power to have those bases, and we consider the Saudis an ally, and bin Laden can kiss my ass. I want him dead for his actions, and I'd lay waste to whatever country hides him to get it done. That is not, however, a reason to decry the entire Islamic religion.

 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
Beaner said:


Didn't the proud leaders of the U S of A say the same thing about communism at one point prior to 1989?
Yep, and they were right, then.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
COVERT ANTI MUSLIM OPERATION SSSHHHH!

I just heard on NPR that the CIA is secretly sending thousands of the WWJD Thongs to the wives of extremist Muslims:
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,181
Points
30
LOL

bturk said:
I just heard on NPR that the CIA is secretly sending thousands of the WWJD Thongs to the wives of extremist Muslims:
Imagine finding one of those on a girl you picked up at a bar...

"Hmmm... Well, that's out. And, erm, THAT is definately out... I suppose I could... Mmmm... no, guess not. Say honey, can we turn off the lights?"
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,624
Points
34
Mastiff, then she would crawl into bed wearing one of these too:
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
gkmo62u said:
BTurk: Low blow on the Donald Rumsfeld thing. He may a other things, but evil? Don't think that's accurrate.
Then can you explain THIS?!?!























































































Rumsfeld hex on you!!
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,993
Points
30
Beaner said:


Didn't the proud leaders of the U S of A say the same thing about communism at one point prior to 1989?
Communisim was/is a threat. You don't agree?
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
I think, in theory, communisim could've worked. However, it didn't- in real life it left people hungry and in poverty, and the select few fat and happy.

It was supposed to be "the real appropriation of the human essence by and for man... the complete return of man to himself as a social being..." (Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844)

I went to Russia for a month in the early 90s, right before Communim fell. It was sad, it was horrible that a country could treat it's people in that manner. It was absolution. It was espionage. It was, and is, evil. They say it's for the greater good- to have everyone participate in a way they can, to have everyone help each other out. I saw a lot of people that couldn't care if they did the job or not, they were getting paid either way, and they weren't being paid enough for it at that. If they did make any money the mafia would threaten them and/or take it. Anyone who owed a car was also paying the mafia for the "right" to drive the car.

It only worked on paper.
 

Wannaplan?

Galactic Superstar
Messages
3,192
Points
28
El Guapo said:
Beaner,
Please tell us more. How was the Red Menace not such a menace?
Well, I would make a distinction between communist countries with nuclear weapons and communist countries without nuclear weapons. I think the issue has more to do with nuclear capabilities than an economic system. As we discovered in 1989 and in the early 1990's, communism, as an economic system, is, was, and always will be a failure. The free markets are superior, no question about it. But mix in megalomaniacal leaders and nuclear weapons with communist ambitions, then yes, that is a threat.

As an economic system, communism was never a threat to our way of life.
 

Wannaplan?

Galactic Superstar
Messages
3,192
Points
28
El Feo said:


I, along with millions of Stalin's, Pol Pot's, and Mao's victims will have to agree to disagree with you.
Communism has nothing to do with that. Any leader can kill and persecute its population, regardless of economic institutions. History has a long list of worldwide psychotic leaders who have engaged in mass murders, many who killed before Das Kapital was ever published.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,993
Points
30
Beaner said:
As an economic system, communism was never a threat to our way of life.
I have a little problem with the enslavement aspects of our Red buddies. Show me the commie country that allowed all its people the right of free travel and encouraged open politics please. Enslavement in any form is a threat to all free people. I would argue we (the free nations) have a moral imperative to liberate the North Koreans from their government. Nukes have nothing to do with it, other than to make the problem a level of magnitude more difficult.

Better Dead than Red!
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
Beaner said:


Communism has nothing to do with that. Any leader can kill and persecute its population, regardless of economic institutions. History has a long list of worldwide psychotic leaders who have engaged in mass murders, many who killed before Das Kapital was ever published.
Sorry, beaner, you're not getting off the hook nearly that easily - we weren't talking about before Das Kapital (1989, remember), so that straw man won't work. We were talking about communism and the Cold War, and their threat to the way of life of free men. And in the mid-to-late 20th Century, the communists were the only game in town when it came to slaughter at such magnitude. History will judge that to this point, nobody's been as good at it as the communists were - even better than fascist Hitler - and ideology had everything to do with it.
 

Wannaplan?

Galactic Superstar
Messages
3,192
Points
28
El Feo said:


Sorry, beaner, you're not getting off the hook nearly that easily - we weren't talking about before Das Kapital (1989, remember), so that straw man won't work. We were talking about communism and the Cold War, and their threat to the way of life of free men. And in the mid-to-late 20th Century, the communists were the only game in town when it came to slaughter at such magnitude. History will judge that to this point, nobody's been as good at it as the communists were - even better than fascist Hitler - and ideology had everything to do with it.
My straw man to your straw man.
 
Top