• Cyburbia is a friendly big tent, where we share our experiences and thoughts about urban planning practice, planning adjacent topics, and whatever else comes to mind. No ads, no spam, no echo chambers. Create your FREE Cyburbia ID, and join us today! You can also register through your Reddit, Facebook, Google, Twitter, or Microsoft account.

Toronto Sheppard Subway

OfficialPlanner

Cyburbian
Messages
930
Points
23
Toronto is set to unveil it's newest subway line this Friday.
It will consist of 6 subway stations which are Sheppard-Yonge, Bayview, Bessarion, Leslie and Don Mills



One of the interesting facts about the subway is it's far outside the downtown core and is basically being built in suburban Toronto. In the beginning it was under some harsh critisism being dubbed "The subway to nowhere" but recently something amazing has happened. A total of 17 million sqft of development is now proposed or under construction along the 6.4 km subway route. Local residents pleaded with politicians that there homes be included in the re-development areas so they could sell at huge profits. Even typical suburban malls put in applications to have below-grade connections with the subway in hopes of luring buyers and even asking for residential and commercial expansions on the parking lot.
The area is now undergoing major change as many of the single-family homes are being replaced by 20ish storey condos and townhomes.

Here is my question.

Is density needed before a subway or does the subway bring density?
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
Here in DC some of both has happend-

Along the Orange line (Fairfax, Arlington, the City and part of Prince Georges Co.) the metro stops seem to have driven higher density development. The stops in Arlington-Ballston, Va Square, Clarendon are going urban high density-high rises, mixed use etc. This area used to be your basic suburban strip hell-its change is fast and upscale.

Now go 7 miles or so W and in the Tysons Corner area of Fairfax Co and there is high density development (huge malls, high rise office buildings and condos) Heck its so high end they have their own Cartier and Tiffanys. But there is no metro. There is a proposal on the table to add a metro line but now that development is there the cost is staggering.

Im not a trans planner but it seems wise to build it and know they will come. having them there and then building it seems outragous cost wise.
 

OfficialPlanner

Cyburbian
Messages
930
Points
23
That's good to hear, I could never understand how some people can be so anti-transit when the benefits are clearly presented. Strip Mall with Dollar Store to Mixed-Use with Tiffanys achieved by higher densities made possible with transit.

Just imagine what the metro will do :)
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
I would guess the two go hand in hand. But more importantly, keep us updated on what happens hare. This sounds like a great case study.
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,903
Points
35
Ya beat me to the punch OPer, I was preparing a thread on this very same topic.

There will be tons and tons of studies looking at the impacts of the Sheppard subway on travel patterns, land use, densities, etc.
 

OfficialPlanner

Cyburbian
Messages
930
Points
23
LOL, Sorry Tranplanner

Somewhat OT:

How is the 40-storey proposal at Sheppard and Yorkland coming along? If approved it will probably set the upper tier for heights found along the Sheppard corridor.
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,903
Points
35
So, she knows you as "OfficialPlanner"?

The proposal you mentioned is not in my jurisdiction, so I'm not sure where it's at right now. I'm just glad I don't have to review the TIS for that one.

You might want to talk to Elyse about the newest tower proposal in her area though... (50 story condo, on the old Backstage theatre site).
 

green22

Cyburbian
Messages
101
Points
6
I have a question, in nyc all bus to subway transfers require use of metrocard, cash or transfer. At the new Leslie and other stations it seems to say, transfer not required. I know that the trolleys sometimes go underground to connect with the subway in Toronto, requiring no transfer. If the buses don't go underground how do they let passengers off in the prepaid fare zone area of the subway, separate prepaid entrance, station?
Also I agree that it is better to have transit develope along with the new community than after it. I think a bigger factor in it's success is having or creating transit oriented districts. However areas do change. For example as midtown has beaten out lower Manhattan over the past 60 years some tracks in lower Manhattan are not used and some are not as busy. It may be necessary to reorient these lines to where the riders want to go requiring expensive construction. In the private market, the public can not forsee or alter where density will form. NYC's policies however have not helped in steering transit friendly development to their transit investments. Infact the government under R Moses did the opposite. Right now in Toronto private enterprise is very interested in building along the subway lines, but if the government continues to disinvest in transit there could be trouble. So far the subway lines have not experienced the ttc service cuts.
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,903
Points
35
Most subway stations in Toronto have bus terminals (for lack of a better word) that allow buses to drop-off/pick-up within the fare-paid zone.
 

OfficialPlanner

Cyburbian
Messages
930
Points
23
Tranplanner,

Thanks for the info. Eyles knows me as Will Bedford.

Re: Subway

I'll try and get some pics posted from the preview opening yesterday.
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,903
Points
35
Rode the new subway for the first time yesterday. While it's a good facility, it doesn't help my commute - in fact it took me a half an hour longer each way. If they improve the bus connections from the Scarborough Town Centre to the subway I may look at taking it more often...

Ridership on the first day was stronger than predicted, but that's likely due to people like me checking out the new line.
 

Jeff

Cyburbian
Messages
4,161
Points
27
If there is only 5 stations is this a spur of another line? How far are the stations spaced? Are there plans to extend this line? Seems kinda short if this is to be a stand-alone system
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,903
Points
35
Mike DeVuono said:
If there is only 5 stations is this a spur of another line? How far are the stations spaced? Are there plans to extend this line? Seems kinda short if this is to be a stand-alone system
No, it's separate line. And yes, it's short - only about 4 miles long. It's really a victim of politics and lack of funding. It should eventually be built all the way to Scarborough Centre, but I'm not sure if that is going to happen in my lifetime! Phase One was originally supposed to go to Victoria Park, but even that got cut back. And the other line that they were supposed to construct at the same time got canned altogether and became a $40 million hole in the ground.

Transit funding is on a slippery slope here in Toronto. The Feds have never (until a recent one-time contribution) given any money for transit, and the Province, which used to fund 75% of all capital projects, and 50% of the operating costs, pulled out of transit funding (and then recently jumped back in, albeit at a markedly reduced rate, for capital projects only).
 
Top