Trip generation question - large multi-use developments

[Forestieri]

I am working on developing a "ball-park" estimate for trip generation (all modes) for a "mega" (360.000 square meters) multi use development in Northern Italy. We have consulted with the ITE Trip Generation Handbook, as well as a number of other publications/studies -- however, we have found very few "useful" comparisons for trip generation rates, especially considering our interest in estimating for all transport modes (various public transport options will be available). 8-!

Has anyone worked on developing trip generation estimates for similar developments? Any case studies you can suggest? Any contacts that may be useful?

Thanks so much.

Uses include: expo areas of over 140,000 square meters; retail fashion 40,000 square meters; administration area of 40,000 square meters; 35,000 square meters of services; other commercial areas 42,000 square meters, and 60,000 square meters of entertainment/museum/IMAX space

MOD EDIT - Thread Split (Tranplanner)

 

[Tranplanner]

I have done some work that may be relevant. Do you have access to information regarding local travel patterns (modal split, etc.)?

You might want to take each use individually, then make some allowances for trip synergies between the uses. Such a large-scale project is likely to have regional trip-making implications that will need to be considered.

 

[Forestieri]

Trip Generation: "Mega" MultiUse Developments and Public Transport 2

I have done some work that may be relevant.

I would definately be interested in discussing with you. :-D

It is a completely new development with definate regional implications, it is planned to have both frequent bus and rail service. We are working on some estimates for modal split and I can get back to you with those estimates at the beginning of next week.

As you mentioned, we think the only way to estimate the trip generation will be to break down the trip generation for the different sub-land use types and then try to subtract an estimate for internal trips. Unfortunately, we have had little luck finding an national or EU reference trip generation rates. So, we have been referring to the ITE manuel but it does not seem to be particularly representative of our situation. Having said this, we are interested in any studies/estimates for similar developments so that we can compare our estimates. ;-)

 

[Tranplanner]

I have dug out a study done about 8 years ago for a similar proposed development in Toronto. Only part of it was completed. I do have some trip rates that may be useful, but unfortunately I don't know how the consultant who did the study developed them.

 

[Forestieri]

Thanks so much for taking the time to locate the information! I am very interested in getting a look at the rates calculated by the consultants, even if there is no explanation given. What would be the easiest means for you to comunicate them to me (ex. email, fax, phone)? I can call you if you would prefer to handle it by phone -- otherwise, I would suggest email in order to avoid international phone bills.

I was also wondering if you have ever read/found anything regarding the ITE Handbook which indicates the car occupancy rates for the generated trips (in particular for shopping centers).

I greatly appreciate your help!

Francesca

 

[Tranplanner]

I'll send you a PM (Private Message) on cyburbia. I may even summarize the info and just post it here, if there is interest from others.

 

[biscuit]

I'll send you a PM (Private Message) on cyburbia. I may even summarize the info and just post it here, if there is interest from others.

Please do post it for the rest of us if it's not too much of a hassle. I don't work in transportation, but am trying to get more involved with design and development review and would like anything that increases my planning smarts.

 

[Forestieri]

Trip Generation Data

I'll send you a PM (Private Message) on cyburbia. I may even summarize the info and just post it here, if there is interest from others.

Thanks again!

 

[jresta]

In my experience the developers and tenants have the best info on this.

It might not be the final word but have you approached them to see what their numbers are and how they square against your preliminary estimates?

 

[Forestieri]

Trip Generation

In my experience the developers and tenants have the best info on this.

It might not be the final word but have you approached them to see what their numbers are and how they square against your preliminary estimates?

I agree that the only way to ensure a credible estimate is to work together. This particular development is still in the planning phase so there are no tenants and the developer is constantly revising the land use definitions for the development. And, I do not think they have any idea regarding trip generation. Furthermore, this particular development is over 4 million square feet - with exposition space - and will be connected to rail and extensive bus lines. A rather unique development which does not fit with any trip generation rates I have found.

If you have any suggestions for similar developments, please let me know. I have been searching the shopping mall associations to obtain additional information but have found very little to be useful...

Thanks again.

Francesca

 

[jresta]

http://www.meadowlandsxanadu.com/index2.html

The Mills Co. is building this huge entertainment complex about 20km west of New York City. The site is already home to a large football stadium and basketball arena. As of now the site is served by a 12 lane freeway.

I don't know what numbers they have at this point but -

A new rail link is being planned as part of it but there's a lot of politicking about it.
The county that it's in wants a commuter rail link that goes directly to Penn Station in New York and the county that's next to it wants a light rail connection to Jersey City and Hoboken/ where you could transfer to ferry/subway/commuter rail.

 

[Forestieri]

Trip Generation - XANADU

Thanks for the lead -- I will check out what I can find out.

Francesca :-D

 

[Tranplanner]

Finally!

Managed to summarize the trip gen info I have as follows:

Saturday/Weekend Peak Hour - Person Trips:
Trade Centre - 8.4/100 sq. metres 75/25 In/out split
Amusement Park/Entertainment Venue - 5.24/100 sq. metres 90/10 in/out split
Casino - 49/100 sq. metres 63/37 in/out split

Weekday PM Peak Hour - Person Trips:
Trade Cente - 7.48/100 sq. metres 66/34 in/out split
Amusement Park/Entertainment Venue - 0.78/100 sq. metres 10/90 in/out split
Casino - 41.7/100 sq. metres - 43/57 in/out split

There are major seasonal variations, especially for the amusement park/entertainment venue (which includes a 15 000 seat concert amphitheatre).

Mode split used: 70% auto, 15% local transit, 10% regional transit, 5% walk/bike. A sensitivity analysis was also conducted, using a higher transit mode split. Your mileage may vary

Auto occupancy: ranges from 1.5 to 3.0 dependent on use (lower for trade centre, higher for amusement park).

Multi-purpose trips - 10%. This would be higher if retail is involved. There was no permanent retail component to the proposed development. In any event, I'm not sure retail trip rates for a North American city would translate well in Europe as retail trip-making tends to be more dispersed here (in my opinion).

 

[Forestieri]

Trip Generation

Thanks so much for taking the time to transfer the information -- it is particularly useful for the trade center data. ITE doesn't have anything appropriate to even compare data for expo area land use.

I'll let you know if I come up with any additional data....

Thanks again :-D

Francesca