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U.S. hostage Johnson apparently beheaded

SGB

Cyburbian
Messages
3,388
Points
26
Attack the Saudis because they upheld the U.S. standard of not giving in to terrorist demands?

RT, explain please.
 

jordanb

Cyburbian
Messages
3,232
Points
25
The Saudi government is a brutal regime propped up by Americans interested in maintaing access to the oil fields there. If the US pulled its troups out of Saudi Arabia, the Saudis would all be dead inside a week.
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,473
Points
25
SGB said:
Attack the Saudis because they upheld the U.S. standard of not giving in to terrorist demands?

RT, explain please.
Because most of the terrorists involved in 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia and because they continue to harbor terrorists.
 

Gedunker

Moderating
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
11,485
Points
41
Interesting segment on NPR this am about Saudi Arabia. The kingdom is just 70 years old and at the beginning it was among the most impoverished nations per capita in the world and now one of the most affluent. BUT there are old arabic traditions that don't mix well with the affluence and ease, and thus fertile grounds for the mullahs and others that stir the pot of anti-western feelings, especially amongst the many unemployed.
 

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,713
Points
24
Gedunker said:
......... BUT there are old arabic traditions that don't mix well with the affluence and ease, and thus fertile grounds for the mullahs and others that stir the pot of anti-western feelings, especially amongst the many unemployed.
There is something missing from our national and even personal discussions that are hindering how we deal with this "Other" group. Part of this is we rail against religious extremism on one side of the equation without dealing with our own religious intolerants (Intolerants is used to denote individuals of zealot like behavior) here at home.

This is one of the few times that a widely recognised "religion" (islam) could use an actual leader/focal point like the catholic church. The fact that there is NO centralized core to deal with, helps create the difficulty we have with individual mullah's that have a strong "cult of personality". It is impractical to deal with thousands of such individuals one on one in the modern era.

We attack them for being violent, but not necessarily because of what they believe. In part, because thier basic belief structure is so similar to conservative christian america. We have plenty of intolerance in our own nation that recieves tacit approval due to petty small minded beliefs. We are angered over the form of death, beheading, but we also understand that there are going to be casualties in cross cultural confrontations like this. At some level, this is acceptance.

I don't see our religious culture dealing with the ramifications of wealth and information distribution being a lot more successful than muslim culture. The difference being that the power of the almighty $ has spoken louder than anything else. We have to deal with our own inequities while we deal with islam, or we are just killing in the hopes that they run out of people before we run out of bullets, and that is a waste of good led.

To those that point out how bad the Saudi rigime is, do you really believe that what is waiting in the wings is somehow more enlightened? 8-!
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,173
Points
51
Ok here we go. If we stay a few will die brutal deaths, including Americans, if we leave, thousands will die brutal deaths, then Americans will be attacked again. Do these people think that the US is nuts... oh yea, we will give you back the people that the Saudi’s arrested, so you can kill your captive anyway? These people need to get a clue. This may sound heartless, but I think that he was dead well before the dead line. I also think that our military is being “too soft” on these terrorists. We need to make sure that the world hears the message that if you hurt an American, we will destroy them, anyone who helps them, and anyone who stands in our way.

Furthermore, all the other countries need to reevaluate what they perceive as just and humane. Because if they are not willing to step up and be strong, the weak will be left behind to face the enemy on their own.

No link between Al Quida and Iraq??? Hmm this guy worked on Helicopters, to fight in Iraq, and he was brutally martyred by Al Quida. I would love to here how the 9/11 commission can deny this link.

(as you can tell, I am a little mad about this, not in the way that the Terrorists want me to be though. I say if this continues, create the world’s largest parking lot, but I will be far more mad if they walk away from this.)
 

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,713
Points
24
michaelskis said:
.......

No link between Al Quida and Iraq??? Hmm this guy worked on Helicopters, to fight in Iraq, and he was brutally martyred by Al Quida. I would love to here how the 9/11 commission can deny this link.

(as you can tell, I am a little mad about this, not in the way that the Terrorists want me to be though. I say if this continues, create the world’s largest parking lot, but I will be far more mad if they walk away from this.)
I'm mad with you, but to stretch this to include a link from Iraq working WITH Al Qieda, you are ....... in error. In your reasoning, this follows:

We DO have back channel relations with Iran, therefore, because those links exist, then GW is activly involved in helping the Iranians procure a nuclear arsenal.

This would be improbable at best and is likely to spur another war sooner rather than later. But for the sake of your argument, you are saying that ANY contact equals ACTIVE PARTICIPATION WITH Al Qieda. You need to look at your reasoning.

One can both Dislike his own leadership, while realizing that there are other threats out there that need to be addressed. Its not either or.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
Hey. Iran IS next. The media is already starting the drumbeat. Look at the New York Times Magazine Cover Story. After November, we will be moving on Iran. Even though leaving the damn place alone will slowly, painfully, and eventually lead to its own population overthrowing the mullahs-we cannot learn our lesson and leave things well alone. How can you blame Iran for wanting nukes-given their recent history? Why are we worried, anyway. We should just follow the example of the Blessed Departed Great Communicator Saint Ronnie the Forgettful and simply secretly sell them the nuclear triggers and plutonium. Heck, maybe we could use the proceeds to arm Islamic terrorists in France to overthrow the evil Froggies' government? Or, I'm sure that there are some good groups in Africa. Heck, how about funnelling the money to Uganda's The Lord's Army. They are a fundamentalist cult (like half the White House) and they kill villagers and innocent children. heck-just like our Founding Fathers(i.e., The Contras)?

I might also point out, that if we are justified in attacking people who have any contacts with Al Qaida, then EVERY ONE of the Neocon Cabal (along with that fat evil toad Henry Kissinger) should be brought up on charges of treason. Heck, they helped create and arm the violent Islamic movement, THEY helped arm Sadaam. THERE is your direct link-Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. The hypocrisy is amazing. I don't believe a word that comes out of their mouths.

Whew, glad I've lanced that boil.
 

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,713
Points
24
BKM said:
........Heck, they helped create and arm the violent Islamic movement, THEY helped arm Sadaam. THERE is your direct link-Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. The hypocrisy is amazing. I don't believe a word that comes out of their mouths.
.....QUOTE]

WOW, AND PEOPLE THINK I AM A BITTER AND CYNICAL! 8-!

WOOO WHOOOO! I'M NOT ALONE! :-D
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,463
Points
29
Duke Of Dystopia said:
BKM said:
........Heck, they helped create and arm the violent Islamic movement, THEY helped arm Sadaam. THERE is your direct link-Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. The hypocrisy is amazing. I don't believe a word that comes out of their mouths.
.....QUOTE]

WOW, AND PEOPLE THINK I AM A BITTER AND CYNICAL! 8-!

WOOO WHOOOO! I'M NOT ALONE! :-D
Hell No! (Can I say "Hell") Maybe instead I should say H-E-Double Toothpick No? :)
 

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,713
Points
24
BKM said:
Hell No! (Can I say "Hell") Maybe instead I should say H-E-Double Toothpick No? :)
Just watch out, NHPlanner likes to squash things way to early before they get ugly! No sense of fun! :-D
 

Wulf9

Member
Messages
923
Points
22
michaelskis said:
No link between Al Quida and Iraq??? Hmm this guy worked on Helicopters, to fight in Iraq, and he was brutally martyred by Al Quida. I would love to here how the 9/11 commission can deny this link.

What happened to Paul Johnson is tragic. I was hoping for a better outcome. I am very sad for his family and friends. He was a regular guy and didn't deserve to be a pawn in this war.

But, before you make the link of Al Quaeda, Iraq, and 9/11 you need to put things in a time frame. Before 9/11, Al Quaeda was not welcome in Iraq (a brutal, secular dictatorship that opposed both Al Quaeda and Radical Islamist governments). After the American occupation, Al Quaeda and a host of other terrorists came to Iraq to fight Americans. Al Quaeda is in Iraq because of the United States invasion, but not prior to 9/11. So the 9/11 Commission was probably correct.
 

Zoning Goddess

Cyburbian
Messages
13,852
Points
39
CNN is reporting that the head Al-Queada guy in Saudi was killed today by Saudi police while "disposing of the body". Jesus.
 

mgk920

Cyburbian
Messages
4,202
Points
26
michaelskis said:
Ok here we go. If we stay a few will die brutal deaths, including Americans, if we leave, thousands will die brutal deaths, then Americans will be attacked again. Do these people think that the US is nuts... oh yea, we will give you back the people that the Saudi’s arrested, so you can kill your captive anyway? These people need to get a clue. This may sound heartless, but I think that he was dead well before the dead line. I also think that our military is being “too soft” on these terrorists. We need to make sure that the world hears the message that if you hurt an American, we will destroy them, anyone who helps them, and anyone who stands in our way.

Furthermore, all the other countries need to reevaluate what they perceive as just and humane. Because if they are not willing to step up and be strong, the weak will be left behind to face the enemy on their own.

No link between Al Quida and Iraq??? Hmm this guy worked on Helicopters, to fight in Iraq, and he was brutally martyred by Al Quida. I would love to here how the 9/11 commission can deny this link.

(as you can tell, I am a little mad about this, not in the way that the Terrorists want me to be though. I say if this continues, create the world’s largest parking lot, but I will be far more mad if they walk away from this.)
I generally agree with this.

A few more thoughts:

The Saudi royal family is very bloated and is fast developing into a house of cards. They have also been paying what is essentially 'protection money' to Al Qaida for many years and even the Sauds are getting fed up with them, thus the attacks on Saudi soil. Despite the tragic loss of innocent lives, the VERY WORST thing to do is to give in to terrorist demands, as they will only keep making more brazen demands. Right now, they are showing a behavior that suggests to me that they are getting desperate.

Due to the Spanish electoral cowardice of a few months ago, I am fully expecting actual terrorist 'red alerts', including 'DNC-Boston' levels of local city access restrictions, similar security around sports stadia (NFL games, NASCAR races, Baseball playoffs/World Series, etc), repressive urban freeway roadblock vehicle inspections and restrictions and so forth here in the USA in October and into November, to co-incide with our election.

My main worry with Saudi Arabia is that the USA military may soon have no choice to go into there to protect their petroleum industry, working to clean up yet another mess.

Most average Iranians HATE the ruling mullahs and are too young to have any memory of the 1979 revolution. Iran was the only place in the Islamic world where spontaneous prayer vigils broke out in the wake of the 2001-09-11 attack in the USA. These people do not at all wish "DEATH TO AMERICA!!!", rather, they want us to reopen our embassy in Teheran. Like with the Saudi royal family, the Iranian mullahs are rightly running scared about their future.

I am comfortable with the conclusion that there was no direct Iraq/Saddam Hussein involvement with the 2001-09-11 attack in the USA, the GWB Administraion never made such an assertion, but to assume that Al Qaida was not involved in Iraq, in the same manner as they have been involved in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Germany, Spain, Russia and, of course, the USA mainland, is pure folly. Also, Vladimir Putin himself sald in a speech just a few days ago that Russia's intelligence agency passed information to his USA counterparts about Saddam Hussein's ambitious designs on the USA, post 2001-09-11.

Lastly, the ONLY thing that these thugs respect is strength and resolve. The relative USA mainland safety since the 2001-09-11 attack is a testimony to that. To waver on either is only inviting disaster.

May the Towers rise again!

Mike.
 
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