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Unpopular or unorthodox beliefs you hold

plannerkat

Cyburbian
Messages
202
Points
9
Zoning Goddess said:
To build on what jtfortin and TexasPlanner said : southern white trash should never be permitted to reproduce.

Hey now, I come from a long line of Southern white trash! I will, however, admit to being horrified by many of my relatives...
 

Journeymouse

Cyburbian
Messages
440
Points
13
On the other hand, a united Ireland in the UK does have a certion appeal. Basically, the (central) UK government should have found it's fluffy liberal devolution streak about 100 years ago. And it should have been nicer to the countries it took over. The whole removal of anything but English / pseudo-British heritage really p.es me off. Especially when I'm in a bad mood to start with...

It's okay. I'll go sit in the corner and fume quietly.
 

nerudite

Cyburbian
Messages
6,536
Points
30
plannerkat said:


Hey now, I come from a long line of Southern white trash! I will, however, admit to being horrified by many of my relatives...

I am in the same circumstance... but I understand the need to control their population. My dad's half of the family comes from Dan's "town next door", I'm sure of it. I'll sign them up for experimental birth control. ;) In fact... If you want a good laugh at my expense, here is my cousin's website. (It has some topless chicks at various Harley rallys like Sturgis... so don't click on this if you are at work).
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,937
Points
39
Planderella - you have to watch that movie!!! And it's not just 'cuz Selma Hyek's in it either.
 

nerudite

Cyburbian
Messages
6,536
Points
30
Tranplanner said:
Planderella - you have to watch that movie!!! And it's not just 'cuz Selma Hyek's in it either.

No... it's because Jason Lee's in it. Yum!
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,165
Points
30
Tranplanner said:
Planderella - you have to watch that movie!!! And it's not just 'cuz Selma Hyek's in it either.

I agree. The "Buddy Christ" is worth the price of rental alone for a Catholic... and Chris Rock is perfect as Rufus.

I bought the special edition DVD, and the out takes and commentary are just outstanding.

RENT IT!

http://images.allposters.com/images/28/003_dogmaros.jpg
 
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Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
19,337
Points
71
Re: I'm a smart ass!

BKM said:
And, I might point out. Drive around Chicago or many of the immigrant-dominated cities of the late 19th/early 20th century. Horrors! Look at all that Polish writing! What are those newspapers in Polish and Ukranian doing here? This is AMERICA!

The difference, though, is that Poland, Italy, and the Ukranian Republic are thousands of kilometers from the United States, separated by very wide bodies of water. However, most cities in Mexico are just a one or two day drive from the US border. I see lots of Jalisco and Chihuahua license plates in Florida. I haven't seen a license plate from Vietnam or Ethiopia yet. It's easier to hold on to your native culture and stay unassimilated when it's so close to your new home.

Another unpopular belief ... I think that some ethnic groups are more prone to slower integration into an "American" identity than others. Go to any large city in the Eastern US, and you'll discover that the characters portrayed on The Sopranos aren't that far off from reality. Yup, you still see third and fourth generation Italian-Americans speaking Italianglish, brag constantly about thier Italian roots, tell their kids that they're disinherited if they date someone whose great grandparents didn't arrive in this country on the same boat that their great grandparents did, and so on. Kids still get named Gino, Guido, Rocco, Maria, Vinnie, and so on. You don't see the same intensity of ethnicity, for lack of a better phrase, among Swedes in Minnesota or Germans in St. Louis.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,069
Points
34
Re: Re: I'm a smart ass!

Dan said:
....You don't see the same intensity of ethnicity, for lack of a better phrase, among Swedes in Minnesota or Germans in St. Louis.

You are absolutely right. A third-generation American, like my other Northern European neighbors, I have completely given up all vestiges of my German heritage. Only American for me!

Now I'm off to the EssenHaus for a kartopfelpuffer, some rouladen or bratwurst, followed by a couple mugs of Kostritzer Schwartz and pretzels, while I listen to some guy on an accodian playing polkas....
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
Immigration

Dan: See my comments re: the latinification of the western United States. I acknowledged that.

Absent a Maginot Line and an ethnic police state, I don't see any easy way to stop demographic inevitability.

Without crossing the line too far into ethnic stereotyping, maybe some cultures, being more family-oriented, are somehow more resistent to assimilation. Plus, in both Italian and Mexican-American cultures, the demographic flow is/was musch stronger and larger.
 

mugbub

BANNED
Messages
67
Points
4
Just come out and say it

This thread is starting to turn ugly. First subdued homophobia on other threads, now racism, xenophobia, and most of all elitism. No matter what the discussion it always comes down to elitism.

Who the hell do you want to work at McDonalds, Kmart, and drive OTR trucks? All you with master's degrees? Somebody's gotta do the shit work. I do agree immigrants need to have a basic assimilation, but they'll never be as white as you want them to be. You can take the mexican out of mexico, but you can't take mexico out of the mexican.
 

Runner

Cyburbian
Messages
566
Points
17
Tranplanner said:
1) Handouts to homeless/street people only encourage them to remain on the streets.

How about just ending the majority of the homeless problem:

REinstitutionalize the mentally ill.
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,165
Points
30
Re: Just come out and say it

mugbub1 said:
Who the hell do you want to work at McDonalds, Kmart, and drive OTR trucks?

Hey, now... It's YOU who's looking for a new line of work, not us.
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,217
Points
27
Re: Just come out and say it

mugbub1 said:
This thread is starting to turn ugly. First subdued homophobia on other threads, now racism, xenophobia, and most of all elitism. No matter what the discussion it always comes down to elitism.


rac·ism Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

xen·o·phobe Pronunciation Key (zn-fb, zn-)
n.
A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism Pronunciation Key (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

Stop feeling inferior, if you weren't so self concious you could take the discussion with a grain of salt without getting your leather chaps in a bunch.
 

Runner

Cyburbian
Messages
566
Points
17
bturk said:
The USA has to stop giving so much foreign aid, especially to countrys which do not support our imperialistic aspirations. The Philipines? C'mon, with all the $ we throw at them they should be a STATE. Same with Guam and Puerto Rico - join us as states or stop suckling at our financial t*t.

A good point but not the best examples, especially so with the Philippines. I remember when they requested on the order of $150 million per year for our two largest, and probably best located, west Pacific air force and naval bases. At the same time Israel and Egypt were collecting billions per year. Instead of paying the "chicken scratch" (as far as the federal budget goes) for the bases we packed up our toys and went home. Talk about cutting off ones nose to spite the face...

Comparatively speaking, we don't throw much money at all towards the Philippines...
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
Plus, given that our heroic soldiers killed upwards of 100,000 civillians, doesn't that mean we at least OWE them a little bit of money for blood guilt? Our very own mini-Kosovo, pushed by all the yellow journalism, war-mongering newspapers (the Rush Limbaughs of their day) and nobody talks about it very much anymore.

Mugbub: Relax. You are a little histronic. And, given my penchant for ranting, THAT is quite a comment.

Besides, the homophobia wasn't exactly hidden.

I've never understood the concept of "conservative planners." Shouldn't you all just be developers or something? "Get the government out of my property rights!"

JUST KIDDING!
 
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Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,937
Points
39
I just KNEW this was going to happen...

I think Dan started this thread more as a way for us to "come out of the closet" so to speak, without fear of being slagged for a particular opinion we might hold.

Hold off on the critisisms here, or maybe start a new thread if there is a topic here you feel strongly about...
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
Re: Re: Phillipines

BKM said:
Plus, given that our heroic soldiers killed upwards of 100,000 civillians, doesn't that mean we at least OWE them a little bit of money for blood guilt? Our very own mini-Kosovo, pushed by all the yellow journalism, war-mongering newspapers (the Rush Limbaughs of their day) and nobody talks about it very much anymore.

;) Someone's been reading Howard Zinn again, haven't they?

Seriously, point well taken, BKM, but I tend to think we're all even up after kicking out Japan. You have to admit, while there may be a tragic delay, we do tend to acknowledge our wrongs and try to right them. Admittedly, we have some wrongs to right still.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
El Feo: Believe it or not, I agree with you :) We usually at least talk about doing the right thing. Most empires just snatch and grap with no compunction beyond "White Man's Burden to educate the savages" kind of rhetoric. The Phillipines case was pretty bad, though. That's what made me a little reflexive reactive.

I am always a little annoyed with the smugness of current European "progressive" thought. I mean, come on, this is the continent that brought us world-spanning colonialism, two world wars, fanatical religions (like the 100 Years War and the Inquisition-and Communism). They have a right to complain about "cowboy presidents"? (Not that I don't agree with them, I just find them irritating :)

There is nothing wrong with debating these beliefs, is there? I don't think anyone of us is so much of a shrinking wallflower that we can't take a little criticism.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,986
Points
31
Another unpopular view.

I believe an Islamic nuke will go off in a major US city or Israel in the next five years and all then you won't be able to find anyone that wasn't for war back in the day (NOW) with Iraq, except Susan Sarandon and Mrs Tim Sarandon, and maybe Woody Harrelson.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,589
Points
34
Re: Just come out and say it

mugbub1 said:
This thread is starting to turn ugly. First subdued homophobia on other threads, now racism, xenophobia, and most of all elitism. No matter what the discussion it always comes down to elitism.

Muggie, don't get upset just becasue we're better than you. ;)
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
Sorry, Guap.

That bombs gonna go off even if/after the American puppet government is established in Iraq, despite the 5,000 Amercan casualties.

I think the point of rational skeptics is that Iraq is not the problem, and that the whole Iraq debacle is based on petty personal and economic politics by the Shrub junta and to divert attention from the developing disasters in Afghanistan (and Pakistan.)

Unless you are channeling the Ancient Athenians and you really think we can "take over" the entire Middle East?

I agree with you that Sarandon and Harrelson are not exactly rational sources of political thought :)
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,986
Points
31
MAYBE

BKM said:
Sorry, Guap.

That bombs gonna go off even if/after the American puppet government is established in Iraq, despite the 5,000 Amercan casualties. :)

I agree that the upcoming war may not stop it. But it will force the boys to find other sources of funding, yield intellligence, and put some healthy fear into the Middle East. I don't think we should take over and install a puppet government. I'm for &^%$& up the place and then leaving.

PS Are you sure of those 50,000 dead GI's? That's what they said last time. They were off by what, 49,832? :)

PPS Slick Willy shoots what, 50 ALCM's and SLCM's at 5 targets to divert attention from that Fat Gal gobblin his knob and he according to all left of Arlen Specter he was a noble man doing what is best for his country? WTF? But when we burry 2900 innocents suddenly Bushy is droppin' tha hamma for Daddy? It don't work that way. I believe the man is doing what he thinks is right.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,589
Points
34
Re: MAYBE

El Guapo said:


I agree that the upcoming war may not stop it. But it will force the boys to find other sources of funding, yield intellligence, and put some healthy fear into the Middle East. I don't think we should take over and install a puppet government. I'm for &^%$& up the place and then leaving.

PS Are you sure of those 50,000 dead GI's? That's what they said last time. They were off by what, 49,832? :)

And as long as They make a cheesy dramatic war movie staring Owen Wilson, we Americans will sleep well at night.
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,589
Points
34
I was referring to his role in Behind Enemy Lines - what crap!
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
Re: MAYBE

El Guapo said:
I'm for &^%$& up the place and then leaving.

I support what would surely be any anti-war liberal planner's worst nightmare: pave Iraq with glass and put up the world's biggest Wal*Mart Supercenter in Basra. ;)

But seriously, what's with all the puppet regime talk, BKM? We dismantled another militaristic, religio-fundamentalist regime in Japan 50 years ago, and now they seem to be thriving fairly well as an independent democracy. Why couldn't that happen in the Middle East? IMHO, folks should have a little more faith in America's contemporary aversion to "traditional" empire, and a whole HELL of a lot more faith in the Arabs' and Persians' ability to peacefully and rationally rule themselves, given an actual chance. It might take something akin to the denazification program in post-war Germany to purge the region of rabid theocratic kooks, but I think it can be done, with good result, if we're willing to see it through.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,986
Points
31
Re: Re: MAYBE

El Feo said:
I support what would surely be any anti-war liberal planner's worst nightmare: pave Iraq with glass and put up the world's biggest Wal*Mart Supercenter in Basra. :)

In '91 the shopping in Basra was quite sad. But you could get fresh goat just about everywhere in town.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
I hope you're right, El Feo.

El Feo: Let's hope you are right.

Since we are still on the "unpopular thoughts" thread, let me just express my skepticism. They are still whining about the loss of Spain. As an ideology, Islam does not provide a lot of room for liberal democracy. Does every society have to be a liberal democracy? No-but the societies controlled by absolutist theocracies or corrupt states have to be watched very closely. Maybe my argument is even supprotive of the Bush doctrine? I doubt it-I think we would be getting into an unending quagmire.

Does that make me Anti-Semitic? Not in the silly luny right wing way. But,. after years of watching the bombings back in forth in Israel and the Middle East, maybe so-in the broader sense.

And Mugbub-I don't care what you think about this admittedly negative attitude. I say a pox on all their houses!
 

mugbub

BANNED
Messages
67
Points
4
Bash Away

Before I was sticking up for the little guys that seem to be looked down upon on these forums. I'm talking about Mullets everybody loves to hate. There just Mullets, no need to think they're second class. They do most of the labor in this country, so be nice to Mulls or they might revolt like in the California seaport strikes.

BKM, when it comes to poxing and paving Iraq you can count me in. The situation in the Mideast has gone far enough- it needs to be dealt with swiflty and effectively whatever the costs. As soon as Ramadan is over the war will begin. Thank the good lord that the GOP has the power. The biggest problem will be the protesters here in the USA. Maybe Mullet construction workers will bash the heads of these 21st century hippies like they did back during Nixon. How 'bout it El Guapo, ready to bash some heads?
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,986
Points
31
BKM said:
Does that make me Anti-Semitic? Not in the silly luny right wing way. But,. after years of watching the bombings back in forth in Israel and the Middle East, maybe so-in the broader sense.

Name the last three politicians that got in trouble for anti-semitism, besides Billy Graham, The Entire Nation of France and Pat Buchanan - Whom no one claims.

They are in no decending order...
Her and her dad!
http://www.cynthia2002.com/images/cyn2.jpg

Keep Hope Alive - Just not in "Hymme Town."
http://www.rainbowpush.org/photogallery/mississippi/capresident.jpe

And give me Twana's main man Al
http://www.jewishpost.com/jewishpost/jp0201c.gif

Now, I'm not saying we don't have our nut jobs also, but it is not an exclusively "right-wing" thing.

mugbub1 said:
How 'bout it El Guapo, ready to bash some heads?

I'm too old and fat now days, but I thank you anyway for your kind offer to kill an Arab Terrorist for Gawd and Country. :)
 
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el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,986
Points
31
Oh - your talking about pulling a Kent State?

Nope, we just let em whine. Then we vote against their art subsidies, PBS, NPR, and the free needle programs come election time. Its the American way. And it works by-Gawd!
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,217
Points
27
Oh my God. Hell just froze over, I actually think I agree with something Muggie said!

I don't like seeing the little hippy kids protesting. It really bugs me. I mean, where I grew up the hippy kids were just kids that had money and wanted to piss their parents off. Maybe if they went of on some peace keeping mission or something.. Ugh, maybe it's just my recent attitude and knowing wanna be hippies out here that aren't more than drop-outs who think they are cleaver while they talk out of thier arses about politics and everything else under the sun after the biggest freakin' toke and think they are smart. The same people who think an inititave for decriminalizing weed, that also does the same for other harder drugs, and makes the cops hvae to pass out the mary-j for medical purposes would actually pass. And not to say I didn't have my share of fun, but I'd much rather grow up and become a responsible functioning part of society.
 
Messages
130
Points
6
Originally posted by SW MI Planner
Fort Wayne, Indiana???? I am a mere 45 minute drive north on I-69. (For all of those not from this area, that is so not a sexual comment, position, etc.)

I firmly believe that the only people who truly like Fort Wayne, Indiana were born and raised there--Fawn Leibowicz notwithstanding.
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,370
Points
29
OK im gonna get fried for this

I don't see the problem with protests as long as they are peaceful. Hell im stuck in a rock in a hard place-I grew up in a military home that was also very much into teaching social activism.

While I think there is a big ass problem in the middle east im not ready to see us blindly march off to Iraq and kill.

Yup im gonna protest-but im protesting the president NOT the troops-heck I do the send the troops a few dozen cards every Christmas, etc., im not a hippy, I have never done drugs and I happen to own a gun.

My backside plans to be down on the mall every chance I get expressing the rights that men IM very proud to call my family have fought and died to protect.

it bugs the hell out of me we turn a blind eye to Israel doing God only knows what to folks yet we are going to invade another nation, preemptively (a first ever)

THAT bothers me. But im damn proud to be an American.

*puts on her teflon and waits for the fire*
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
OK: Just got back from a frustrating meeting that took twice as long as it should have, so this is my chance to vent before I get real work done :)

Dittos, Plannergirl. Mugwump and his ilk would still be bowing and scraping to the descendents of King George. After all, them scappy colonials don't know what good for them. Just listen to King George and his redcoats. George Washington et al are just spoiled whiners.

The problem is: I admit that I am a classic fence sitter. I say a pox on all their houses. :)

1. I think the proposed war on Iraq is a diversion from real problems the country faces. We are still cuddling up to the Saudis, for God's sake. Let alone our ongoing BILLIONS pumped into that police state and political cesspool (Israel/Palestine) (money sent to both sides, for God's sake!)

2. I don't trust the current regime at all. You may make fun of the lazy, non-productive hippies. I am far more frightened of people like Dick Cheney and John Ashcroft who have real power and real money and are, to me, not very believable. Their so-called "realpolitic" has partly CREATED the monster we see in Sadaam. What a buch of lying hypocrites. Plus, much of the Republican leadership in Congress is in bed with wacko confederates and religious nuts that make the Taliban look soft.

3. I don't like Sadaam. I feel very little sympathy for the "poor oppressed Iraqi people." I thoroughly dislike current fundamentalist and authoritarian/corrupt Arab culture, and I really don't care if they invented math 500 years ago. The purity of fanatical belief is frightening and intense.

They get the government they deserve (even if we, or at least previous admionistrations, helped Sadaam).

4. I still think the war will be a purposeless quagmire that will destroy the world economy and lead to a decade of increasing terrorist violence.

5. I am not a peacenick who believes that giving money to the middle east will solve things (I mean, how much money has been pumped into that desert hole over the last 50 years through the oil industry. If they can't build a decent society on that much money, how will a little bit of foreign aid pumped into unstable, weak "democracies" solve anything.

El Guapo: You are right of course about leftist identity politicans being antisemitic, too. Idiocy is not confined to any side of the spectrum (Hence the wimps on the left whining about the poor Iraqui people. Maybe Sadaam should sell one of his 45 palaces to buy food???)

I was just scanning www.portalofevil.com the other day, which had some particularly juicy Anti-Semitic far right religious sites posted for our amusement.

Mugbub would LOVE the Portal of Evil.
 
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El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
God, I like you BKM.

Finally, a fence-sitter (you do realize you're not on the fence as much as you think though, though, right?) that I can have a calm, rational disagreement/discussion with. Here are a few thoughts in answer to your concerns:

BKM said:
1. I think the proposed war on Iraq is a diversion from real problems the country faces. We are still cuddling up to the Saudis, for God's sake. Let alone our ongoing BILLIONS pumped into that police state and political cesspool (Israel/Palestine) (money sent to both sides, for God's sake!)

Please tell me you haven't forgotten September 11th just 14 months later - you don't think that points to the biggest problem this country faces, or that it's real? One thing at a time with regards to the middle east. Saud delenda est. And I think it will be, along with Iran, Syria, and Lebanon, pretty quickly after Saddam is replaced, and perhaps without much of a push from us. As for characterizing Israel as a police state, I strongly disagree. Have you not heard that Sharon's government is collapsing? In a police state, Sharon wouldn't have much to worry about.

2. I don't trust the current regime at all. You may make fun of the lazy, non-productive hippies. I am far more frightened of people like Dick Cheney and John Ashcroft who have real power and real money and are, to me, not very believable. Their so-called "realpolitic" has partly CREATED the monster we see in Sadaam. What a buch of lying hypocrites. Plus, much of the Republican leadership in Congress is in bed with wacko confederates and religious nuts that make the Taliban look soft.

If you're paying very close attention, I think you'll find that conservative hawks like Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, and yes, Bush & Cheney actually buy the "root cause" argument of much of the left - they're just politically smart enough to know they can't say it. I can't explain it any better than this Christopher Hitchens piece in today's Slate.

3. I don't like Sadaam. I feel very little sympathy for the "poor oppressed Iraqi people." I thoroughly dislike current fundamentalist and authoritarian/corrupt Arab culture, and I really don't care if they invented math 500 years ago. The purity of fanatical belief is frightening and intense.

I'm on board for much of this one, with the exception that I do have a pretty strong sympathy for the poor oppressed Iraqi people.

They get the government they deserve (even if we, or at least previous admionistrations, helped Sadaam).

It's not a democracy - so I don't think you can seriously argue this point. At least, I can't be persuaded. As I've mentioned before, I think liberal democracies can work in that part of the world.

4. I still think the war will be a purposeless quagmire that will destroy the world economy and lead to a decade of increasing terrorist violence.

And the alternative would be...(drumroll, please)...a world of fear, where we do nothing to at least try and stop terrorists and their state sponsors, where the world economy will be destroyed anyway, with decades of increasing terrorist violence.

5. I am not a peacenick who believes that giving money to the middle east will solve things (I mean, how much money has been pumped into that desert hole over the last 50 years through the oil industry. If they can't build a decent society on that much money, how will a little bit of foreign aid pumped into unstable, weak "democracies" solve anything.

I agree, but would go further - money doesn't work by itself, obviously, but I'll always go back to my tried and true examples of post-war Germany and Japan, which I think should be the model for building lasting democracies in the region.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
You have good points, El Feo.

I think where we disagree is that I am very afraid of Imperial Overreach. George Washington was absolutely right. I love my country, but I don't believe in American Exceptionalism and I don't think we have the right to establish an empire. The costs are too high.

My fear is that the essay I just read in The London review of Books (3 October, 2002 Anatol Lieven-not on line) is spot on.

And, I have serious doubts that trying to take over countries in the Middle East will work-I think that program will contribute to a far worse world of fear.

There are no "easy" solutions. Because, I also believe that there are inherently differerent ways of looking at the world, I have more doubt about the future of western-style democracy in the Middle East.

However, while this agnostic heathen would not do well under Sharia, I would do no better under the farther reaches of the Republican Party (The Party of God), either. Posters on this very board would line me up and shoot me for a variety of crimes. :)

I guess I have no answers. I am just a lowly government bureaucrat lucky to have a job that allows me to post these rants.
 

GeekyBoy

Cyburbian
Messages
41
Points
2
Which brings us to another issue

ie. "inherit" superiority of democracy as a way of governance, in the "western" perspective.

At a local scale, perhaps it is true. But I do think that a benevolent (I stress that word) technocracy could do better at a national and global level.

GB
 

donk

Cyburbian
Messages
6,961
Points
31
This will get me lynched quicker then all of the stuff about others have written about gays, women, gov't, guns and religion.

I don't really believe in concensus building or public participation / consultation. The culture of where I live and my bad experiences with dealing with the locals has soured me on these items.

If they were so smart and cared so much about the land and resources (as they profess) they (the public) would not have created the mess we are in with respect to neighbours fighting neighbours, sprawl, heritage preservation and construction standards.

Sometimes you need someone to tell you what needs to be done, without coddling the ignorant masses.
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,461
Points
29
GBoy- Do you mean Singapore-style technocracy? As socially restrictive as it is, many would argue that Singapore is a good model. I wonder. Part of their success is providing a platform for multinationals. Maybe that is our only future? Yuck.

I agree with you that it may be arrogant to assume that every country can be or should be a western-style "democracy." I have doubts about American exceptionalism.

Not that I am a total relativist, either. When it comes to womens' rights, a culture that refuses to prosecute rape unless there are three male witnesses is worng, not just "culturally different" Of course, that culture is Pakistan, which is our ally on the War on Terror. And the Shrub administration has just appointed a woman to a major position who believes that the police should just stay out of situations where the hubbie is beating his wife "because that is just an interpersonal matter that the police can't understand"

No more ranting, I promise.
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,217
Points
27
donk said:


Sometimes you need someone to tell you what needs to be done, without coddling the ignorant masses.

I can agree with that- I find it odd that the masses (in San Antonio) voted on taking flouride out of the water (a few years back) without ever figuring out where they are going to get the water from (the Colorado doesn't really have enough). Instead of building a resevior the build a stadium-

It doesn't make sense to me-
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
GeekyBoy said:
Which brings us to another issue

ie. "inherit" superiority of democracy as a way of governance, in the "western" perspective.

At a local scale, perhaps it is true. But I do think that a benevolent (I stress that word) technocracy could do better at a national and global level.

GB

Examples of successful "benevolent" technocracies (private sector examples won't fly) at any level would be greatly appreciated.
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,937
Points
39
El Feo said:


Examples of successful "benevolent" technocracies (private sector examples won't fly) at any level would be greatly appreciated.

Science Fiction novels don't count either!
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
BKM said:
GBoy- Do you mean Singapore-style technocracy? As socially restrictive as it is, many would argue that Singapore is a good model. I wonder. Part of their success is providing a platform for multinationals. Maybe that is our only future? Yuck.

I agree with you that it may be arrogant to assume that every country can be or should be a western-style "democracy." I have doubts about American exceptionalism.

Not that I am a total relativist, either. When it comes to womens' rights, a culture that refuses to prosecute rape unless there are three male witnesses is worng, not just "culturally different" Of course, that culture is Pakistan, which is our ally on the War on Terror. And the Shrub administration has just appointed a woman to a major position who believes that the police should just stay out of situations where the hubbie is beating his wife "because that is just an interpersonal matter that the police can't understand"

No more ranting, I promise.

No such promises from me. ;)

BKM, you tread on very dangerous ground with me when you question whether every country "can" be a democracy. Now, I can't be clear enough on this point - I know you're no racist. But nonetheless to me the notion smacks of the offensive "happy darky" argument against black enfranchisement peddled in the South after the civil war ("why, they're happy where they are - they wouldn't know what to do if they got their freedom - they like it just fine here on the plantation and that's where they're most comfortable"). Please, elaborate on what you mean.

And let's just clear another point up, too - "western-style" democracy is the only style of democracy there is. I will never accept an argument that the rise of democracy in the west was due to some inherent "racial" superiority (nor will I ever accept the notion of geographic determinism a la Fernand Braudel, and, more recently, Jared Diamond and Robert Kaplan). I think it was more of a happy and fortunate accident. But it is a western political "invention" that was not independently developed anywhere else in the world (not even in American aboriginal governments - where even in "progressive" systems like the Iroquois League, a chief could still kill anyone who made him mad enough without due process, and with impunity).
 
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