• Ongoing coronavirus / COVID-19 discussion: how is the pandemic affecting your community, workplace, and wellness? 🦠

    Working from home? So are we. Come join us! Cyburbia is a friendly big tent, where we share our experiences and thoughts about urban planning practice, planning adjacent topics, and whatever else comes to mind. No ads, no spam, no social distancing.

War - Huuuh, what is it good for?

Tom R

Cyburbian
Messages
2,274
Points
25
war

I don't support the draft but I think that Rep. Dingel (sp.?) from NY has the right idea. Register and draft every son AND daughter between 18 and 25. (Personally I'd start with those of all the gung-ho war mongers.) Maybe when they saw their children going off with the knowledge that they might not be comeing back they might put some deeper thought behing their statements. This "trust me" bs from W don't cut it. Anybody heard of the Tonkin Gulf Resolution?
 

SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
From mastiff:
Yet, didn't people in mideast countries have celebrations?
AFAIK, the Palestine people that CNN showed doing "celebrations" as you so nicely put it, was a hoax run by the CNN to once again create hate against the Palestines.
The celebrations occurred 10 years before, in 1991, in the gulf war, and I think it was when the US won the war. And if not, it was when Irak invaded Kwait, which is mildly acceptable, because just tell me if US allies would do celebrations when the US invades another country.. but I sincerely think it's the first option. they were celebrating the end of the gulf war.
 

Seabishop

Cyburbian
Messages
3,838
Points
25
SkeLeton said:


AFAIK, the Palestine people that CNN showed doing "celebrations" as you so nicely put it, was a hoax run by the CNN to once again create hate against the Palestines.
Any evidence would be highly appreciated.
 

Tranplanner

maudit anglais
Messages
7,903
Points
35
I seem to recall hearing something about this - but I don't think it was CNN that originated the story, they just picked it up.
 

SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
damn hoax....

It seems to be that I was missinformed by a hoax... now that I read the original message, I sensed the hoax tone in it, oh well, but what do we win with hating others? We just fall on their same category of intolerance and hate.
I see that violence is quite inherent of human beings and other animals. The worst part is that violent people in their rage, don't use their intelligence to reason and think of what they are doing. they don't mesure the consequences or even think if what they are doing is right or wrong. As long as people learn to control theirselves and use their minds always, violence will be going down (quite utopic isn't it?) and probably reach a point where there is none.
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,181
Points
30
Grassroots said:

staying out of their business? tell that to the oil gluts at exxon who refuse to even glance at alternative transportation and non-oil consuming technology (and, in fact, oftentimes impede their development). we want stay out of the middle east ...good luck as long as everyone continues to drive SUV's. even though i nearly always disagree with organized religion period, i think those stupid ads they are putting up now do have a point. we are supporting this crap with our consumption.
While I agree on your point about big companies and alternative energy completely, you can forget about the "SUV argument". As long as it is PROFITABLE to sell gas, gas will be sold. If my SUV got 200 miles to the gallon, I'd still have to buy gas... and then they'd raise the price to $8.50 a gallon. The biggest price fixing scam is run by the people you mention, and no one will take them on that can beat them... at least, not so far.


Grassroots said:
are you saying that you want WWIII? i have always hoped my country has evolved into something more than that. maybe instead of doing what is expected (blowing up thier country), hit them where they don't epected it. see below.
Huh? Where did you get that idea? The U.S. was drawn into WWII, and if we had not, we might all be speaking German and Japanese. I expect my country to protect us, and our way of life. Do I WANT to kill the people of Iraq? No... But if they want to kill me, or other Americans, why should we not?

Grassroots said:
exactly...but even more so, being an american, to me, means leadership. we continue to put billions into foreign aid promoting foreign competition and competitive ideals. why do we not take a lesson from OURSELVES regarding leadership and competition. instead of going to blow up a country (or a group) that realistically has us by the balls as a result of our consumption habits, why not dump the 200-400 billion dollars that has been projected to be spent on this bullshit, develop fusion power, and then turn around and sell it to the world; thus leaving these guys out of the equation altogether!! do you know how that would wonderfully piss them off more than going to kill the entire country? THAT is leadership and competition. i just wish america would use its brain instead of its might. we have no comprehensive energy policy to date. i can understand defending american ideals being an american, but when those ideals have not even been PLANNED (remember we are planners), i have issues watching my president trying to justify our policy THAT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST OR IS NOT CLEARLY DEFINED! i am at least glad he is starting to look at fusion power, albeit slowly and they are making strides i heard. too bad he and the administration are predicting 2037. hope it is not too late.
Erm... If I were in charge, the only foreign aid would be for birth control.

That said, I prefer to put Americans to work building cruise missiles to shoot at people who want to kill us, to spending that money on a country full of people who hate us. And, I think the Bush policy is pretty clear... Iraq, either prove you have no weapons of mass destruction, or we'll show you that we do!
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,181
Points
30
Michael Stumpf said:
Harmless, renewable energy sources? Wind turbines make a lot of noise. They are also a threat to birds. What about harnessing rivers? Ask a salmon about that, if you can find one.
Solar?
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,181
Points
30
Re: war

Tom R said:
I don't support the draft but I think that Rep. Dingel (sp.?) from NY has the right idea. Register and draft every son AND daughter between 18 and 25. (Personally I'd start with those of all the gung-ho war mongers.) Maybe when they saw their children going off with the knowledge that they might not be comeing back they might put some deeper thought behing their statements. This "trust me" bs from W don't cut it. Anybody heard of the Tonkin Gulf Resolution?
I have two sons, 14 and 10. I would hate to think of them going to war... But, when it comes down to having to fight, I'd tell them they need to go.
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,181
Points
30
Re: damn hoax....

SkeLeton said:
oh well, but what do we win with hating others? We just fall on their same category of intolerance and hate.
Live and let live is different than "live and let yourself be killed."
 

BKM

Cyburbian
Messages
6,464
Points
29
I'm not very sympathetic with the Islamic radical movements. But where I disagree with some of you is the whole idea that we can just "kill them all."

Selective strikes, yes. Afghanistan was necessary-although like usual, we have tried to half-ass it and are ignoring our pledge to help re-build the country (except for an oil pipeline that is miraculously a big priority of the Karzai government-imagine that.) Blindly attack every country picked out by a radical bunch of oil executives and scary imperialists? I don't think so.

I doubt that killing them all is even practical, particularly as, some other thread posters have pointed out, the very act of bombing one mullah nest leads to the creation, through propaganda, of another nest of mullahs.

All those lovely three strikes laws you conservatives always like: guess where a hotbed of radical Islamic recruiting is: That's right: American prisons.

I don't know the answer. I certainly know where I would be in one of those merciful societies obedient to Allah (bayonetted in a hole in the ground). But then, I would probably be in the same place were some of the Ashcroftian mullahs and the scarier elements (The Conspiracy that Hillary was complaining about) were in full power, too. :(
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,081
Points
34
BKM said:
All those lovely three strikes laws you conservatives always like: guess where a hotbed of radical Islamic recruiting is: That's right: American prisons.
Not if we had a stricter and swifter death penalty!

But seriously, I agree that bombing and killing is not the solution. Let's ask ourselves, if it was the United States that was the weak nation, opressed by dictatorial leadership, and a more powerful nation (or its economic interests) was complicit in denying our inalienable rights, would we not direct some of our anger at that nation?

No, that is not the reason of all of the extremist groups, but we would never-the-less be held in higher regard by the people of these nations if we though a bit less of our interests and supporting corrupt, brutal, and undemocratic governments. In the long run, our interests would be better protected.

P.S., I do not support the death penalty and applaud former Illinois Governor Jim Ryan for commuting all death sentences. I was a bit surprised to see this from a Republican. It's too bad. The party used to have more people on the right side of this issue.
 

SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
Yup, I agree that Mike sumed it all wel enough, without getting burned like I did :p
I blame the age... :( I'm just 18 ok?! just put yourselves in that case... you tend to be more radical. Sorry about that... It's also that we don't live in the same country or region. Of course, I won't deny that I was quite shocked with the attacks, and I was angry at Osama bin Laden and all of those extremists. Sure, I wouldn't have minded if you bombed the hell out of them (well, you did!) (and by YOU, I mean the US military, no personal offense to anybody) Later I realised that they are different, and being different it doesn't make them bad. BUT it does make them bad killing more than 2000 people and being violent.

Mastiff said a few posts back: The thing is Live and let live, not live and let them kill you.
Of course, I have never said that you don't have the right to defend yourselves from attacks from other countries or terrorist organizations. The thing is Defense, so you shouldn't strike first, as you plan to do in Irak. THAT is MY problem with war.
 

Journeymouse

Cyburbian
Messages
443
Points
13
Re: a little p.s.

Grassroots said:
i also heard on bbc this mornig that all the enviro freaks in europe are going ape because great britain has told people they are going to start building new nuclear plants. they are doing this because it is the only clean source of power available to be able to meet the kyoto protocol standards they signed onto.
The UK has a minor problem with nuclear power in that the gov.t keeps writing off the industry's debt (something like £500 million last time they did so). This makes electricity from nuclear fission energy the cheapest. On the good side, PowerGen, one of the bigger electricity production companies, is now investing in the first UK off-shore wind farm...
 

Grassroots

Cyburbian
Messages
90
Points
4
I applaud GB for restarting their nuclear program.

I think North Koreans are applauding North Korea's nuclear program too!!!! such a safe energy source.
 

Journeymouse

Cyburbian
Messages
443
Points
13
I'm not sure I agree with nuclear fission as an 'alternative' energy source. Knowing how little security there is for the waste in the UK makes me nervous. And the companies involved have a disproportionate hold over the govt. if this debt thing is anything to go by.
 

Tom R

Cyburbian
Messages
2,274
Points
25
Re: Re: war

Mastiff said:


I have two sons, 14 and 10. I would hate to think of them going to war... But, when it comes down to having to fight, I'd tell them they need to go.
I don't deny that there are times when one should take up arms and defend your country. I've done it and a number of my relatives have done it (one of which didn't come home). BUT, everyone should be convinced that the reason for going is absolutely necessary, just, moral and is in the best interest of the country. GWB hasn't convinced me - not even close.

And, ole W may get them caught in a wringer if the UN inspectors don't find WMDs and he has to commit to a war without evidence from the UN or back down. If this turns out to be the case, I hope he backs down. But I doubt that he will.
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,181
Points
30
SkeLeton said:
Of course, I have never said that you don't have the right to defend yourselves from attacks from other countries or terrorist organizations. The thing is Defense, so you shouldn't strike first, as you plan to do in Irak. THAT is MY problem with war.
1) Getting rid of the enemy is the best defense.
2) If you think Iraq is harmless and wishes the U.S. no ill will, and doesn't fund terrorist, read up on it.
3) War sucks. But there are times when nothing else will do.
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,181
Points
30
Re: Re: Re: war

Tom R said:


I don't deny that there are times when one should take up arms and defend your country. I've done it and a number of my relatives have done it (one of which didn't come home). BUT, everyone should be convinced that the reason for going is absolutely necessary, just, moral and is in the best interest of the country. GWB hasn't convinced me - not even close.
I actually like the way it's being done. Nothing sneaky... "Hey look! Here come a few thousand more marines, and another aircraft carrier!" The Saudis are getting so nervous they're working on a plan to oust the bastard...

Tom R said:

And, ole W may get them caught in a wringer if the UN inspectors don't find WMDs and he has to commit to a war without evidence from the UN or back down. If this turns out to be the case, I hope he backs down. But I doubt that he will.
First, I think we'll find, at some point, that the weapons are still around. The U.N. just found some empty warheads... I wonder what those are for?

Second, I believe the guy is a threat. And he's one of those crazy threats. What have we heard from Iran since we shelled their oil rigs? What has Libya done since the F-111s dropped some tonnage on the palace? Very little... With Saddam, we toss them out of Kuwait, bomb their capital, invade the country, and hit them with U.N. sanctions, and he's still defiant.

I prefer those kind be treated like a weed, and pulled out by the roots so they don't pop back up.
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
Messages
674
Points
19
SkeLeton said:
Of course, I have never said that you don't have the right to defend yourselves from attacks from other countries or terrorist organizations. The thing is Defense, so you shouldn't strike first, as you plan to do in Irak. THAT is MY problem with war.
Skel, just curious - in your mind, what constitutes defense? Does it mean that, despite the fact we know he's preparing to do it, we wait until Hussein lights up New York or drops VX on LA - or, yes, while not American, even Tel Aviv - to do something about it? Or, far more likely, do we wait until he shares those wonderful "tools" with proxies like Ansar al-Islam, al Qaeda, Hezbollah, etc. to do it on his behalf? (The evidence for Iraqi acceptance of and collusion with terrorists is out there aplenty, but here is a specific example to get you started.) If so, to me, that's not defense, that's naive, irrational hope. The problem in a world with WMD is - "traditional" defense is a luxury no one has.

Yeah, yeah, I know we have nukes, and I've heard the argument that Americans are hypocrites to try and keep WMD out of the hands of others. Despite what many may think, I'm not an "America-can-do-no-wrong" guy, and many of our actions are hypocritical. Do I care? Yes, and no. I wish we could be consistent in our application of policy and power, and I think we are becoming much more so. But after all, we are a nation of humans - free and deliberative humans - and such an argument makes the perfect (a world without WMD, living in harmony, and all that ridiculously unattainable kumbayammering) the enemy of the good (a powerful nation, decent, and with the will and self-restraint to use that power to lift the yoke of oppression, and make ourselves safer in the process).

In this instance, I believe we're a hell of a lot closer to being right on approach than anybody else (excepting Britain and Australia, God love 'em) seems to be on this one.
 
Top