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Who (doesn't) Get to Rebuild Iraq

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
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4,473
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25
-Sorry to get off topic (or on topic), but the title should be... "Who doesn't get to rebuild america's cities"!!!
-It should start with HUD and the feds, along with the real esta.....I better retract.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
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10,080
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34
Rumpy Tunanator said:
-Sorry to get off topic (or on topic), but the title should be... "Who doesn't get to rebuild america's cities"!!!
-It should start with HUD and the feds, along with the real esta.....I better retract.
If America had more oil you'd better believe we'd be helping to rebuild their cities....I better retract. ;)

Somehow, I just can't see this move as helping to repair the relationship between the US and France or Germany. I don't see this as helping to win over the hearts and minds of Iraqis with ties to Germany or France. I don't see this as helping to repair the world's image of the US as a bully and/or petulant government. It amazes me at how much this Bush differs from his father on foreign relations.
 

gkmo62u

Cyburbian
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1,046
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24
From my personal favorite bog at AndrewSullivan.com:


One of the best decisions yet from the Bush administration - cutting Russia, France and Germany out of Iraqi reconstruction projects. The rationale is obvious. Our allies have to understand that membership has its privileges - and that betrayal has its consequences. Why should U.S. tax-payers help line the coffers of companies from countries that did all they could to keep Saddam in power? Let Britain, Japan, Italy and Australia benefit from their solidarity.


And Jeff, well put.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
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5,995
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31
I really likes what Kunstler wrote in his C.F.N. commentary of November 25, 2003. But wait, it was a guest column. Nevertheless it is brilliant.

Gedunker said:
"To the victors go the spoils of war."
PS Gedunker, that was true until, oh about 100 years ago. Since then these wars seem to cost way more than the spoils are worth. Why couldn't we wage war on a nice place with some real spoils? Like, Canada or Aruba?

But the real injust seperation of a people from their property migh be best expressed thusly, "The spoils of my labor are taken from me under the threat of force to fuel liberal apeasment of their target voting blocks." But that doesn't have the same flow, does it?
 

donk

Cyburbian
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6,970
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30
After we pumped $250 million into the effort, took over positons in Afganhistan to free up US resources for Iraq, been bombed by US forces, Canada is on the no bid list too.
 

Gedunker

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el Guapo said:
Why couldn't we wage war on a nice place with some real spoils? Like, Canada or Aruba?
I thought we did the Panama/Haiti things already;-)

El Guapo I see your point, but I don't think that the coalition forces intend to be an army of occupation, plundering Iraq like Nazi Germany or Japan did to the countries they occupied during WWII. From a foreign policy standpoint, I believe the decision lends credence to greater anti-Americanism globally.
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
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674
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19
Gedunker said:
From a foreign policy standpoint, I believe the decision lends credence to greater anti-Americanism globally.
Gedunker, you can't alienate someone unwilling to "like" you under any circumstance. Those that hate us, will hate us regardless of our actions. I think it's a rare country that does something for any other country out of loyalty - it's all about what's in it for them - especially France, from the Revolutionary War on. The world sucks that way.

Odd to me that America is seen as the home of mammon worship, but France, Germany and Russia were the top weapons suppliers to Iraq in the 1990s, and they're screaming bloody f'ing murder over losing a crack at the money to be made now. Might as well send a message in the only language they apparently understand - $$$$$.

As to the specific countries, I now believe that:

France is our enemy, has been for nearly a decade, and we are only now realizing it. Screw 'em.

Germany, for the first time in contemporary history, was bullied into going along with something by France (with hopes for greater EU glory down the road). I now believe they regret it, and genuinely fear for the long-term US-German relationship. This will do them some good - let them feel the pain for awhile.

Russia - well, I think Putin obstructed for domestic political reasons, and knew this was the price he would pay down the road. I think he feels it was worth it. He'll now find out whether or not it was.
 

Gedunker

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El Feo said:
Gedunker, you can't alienate someone unwilling to "like" you under any circumstance. Those that hate us, will hate us regardless of our actions. I think it's a rare country that does something for any other country out of loyalty - it's all about what's in it for them
I don't disagree that those nations hostile to capitalist democracies will continue to hate us, whether we excluded any or everybody from reconstruction contracts. And frankly, I don't give a cr&p about any of them. But elsewhere this heavy-handed policy plays poorly. Read Donk's post about Canada on the no bid list. Reads a little bitter to me. As to the rest of your comments:

France, Germany and Russia ... screaming bloody f'ing murder over losing a crack at the money to be made now. Might as well send a message in the only language they apparently understand - $$$$$.
Perfectly acceptable to reward them equal to the treasure they risked to remove Saddam.

France is our enemy, has been for nearly a decade, and we are only now realizing it. Screw 'em.
Well said.

Germany ... I now believe they regret it, and genuinely fear for the long-term US-German relationship. This will do them some good - let them feel the pain for awhile.
I don't trust the Germans very much so let them not only sweat but prove later that they no longer sleep with France.

Russia - well, I think Putin obstructed for domestic political reasons
With his own terrorist worries in Chechnaya, Putin may earn a pass.

I wish Bush would lighten his foreign policy touch and learn a little bit from his Dad. Subtlety is very useful on the world stage.
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
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674
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Gedunker said:
I wish Bush would lighten his foreign policy touch and learn a little bit from his Dad. Subtlety is very useful on the world stage.
I certainly respect that this is your sincere opinion on this, really - but in my mind Dad was president in a different world. I sincerely believe that subtlety would be read as fecklessness and weakness by those who mean us harm.

A bull in a china shop is a good thing when the china shop needs trashing.
 

Gedunker

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El Feo I do not believe the whole china shop needs wrecking.

Your comment brings to mind the quotation by a US Serviceman in Vietnam, questioned as to why a village was burned to the ground. He replied 'In order to save the village it became necessary to destroy it.'

It is a different world from GHWB's day, but does anyone really believe the United States is weak? Complacent, lazy and sloppy in our defense and preparedness prior to Sept'r 11, yes, I agree. But weak? I think not.
 

ludes98

Cyburbian
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1,264
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22
[tommy boy] I can wreck the china shop with the butcher, but it's got to be your bull. No wait it's my bull. [/tommy boy]

Originally posted by Cardinal
Somehow, I just can't see this move as helping to repair the relationship between the US and France or Germany.
I can't see it helping, but I haven't seen France as ally of ours since WWII ended either. Still in disbelief that Germany sat on the sidelines. I don't think that the relationship is dead, but needs counseling.

I don't see this as helping to repair the world's image of the US as a bully and/or petulant government.
The image can't be perfect, and we will be all things to different people at different times. I am sick of the U.S. policing the world, but I don't see not doing anything as being better either. Have NATO and the UN outlived their usefulness?
 

El Feo

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674
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19
Gedunker said:
El Feo I do not believe the whole china shop needs wrecking.

Your comment brings to mind the quotation by a US Serviceman in Vietnam, questioned as to why a village was burned to the ground. He replied 'In order to save the village it became necessary to destroy it.'
Depends on what china shop we're talking about G, and I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear which one I was talking about - let me do so.

But first, I'll have to disagree with you about folks thinking the US was weak. OBL, Saddam Hussein, Kim Il-Jong, Khameini, and plenty of others did think the US was weak, or at least weak-willed, which is worse, and we'd given them plenty of reason to think so, from our withdrawal from Beirut in the 80s right through Mogadishu in the 90s. Why did Saddam Hussein invade Kuwait in 1990? GHWB's very own "subtle diplomacy." And September 11th wasn't just a result of our laziness and sloppiness - it was just as much or more a result of our reticence to respond to earlier provocation.

Now to my china shop. The one I'm talking about is the whole kabuki of international "relations" jaw-jawing EU and UN-style. It was/is sick, soulless, meaningless, provides cover for dictators, puffs up waning powers with delusions of importance, covers up real suffering, keeps people in chains, accomplishes nothing except providing feel-good opportunities for coddled kambayah-ers, lavish lifestyles for do-nothing diplomats, and generally f---s the world up. The system of symbolic conference leading to nothing needed to be trashed, needs to be trashed some more, and I don't feel a bit bad about having the US being the one to trash it.

Sorry, but I strongly believe good ol' Clausewitzian "kinetic diplomacy" is necessary every once in awhile to remind foreign relations rationalist clowns that it takes more than simple talk to take out nuts with nukes (or nuke ambitions), free oppressed peoples, and prevent more mass graves. And I think the contracting decision drives the point home.
 

Gedunker

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Guns and Butter! El Feo! Watch out Fearless Leader Dan, your supremacy may be challenged by a new comer!

Actually, I understand your description of the "china shop" from this last post and I agree wholeheartedly. Diplomacy as we know it is broke, it does need to be fixed and we should be leading the way. But we must remain engaged and we must ensure that others are engaged as well. Not particularly easy to do when you cannot build a broad consensus for action or a substantial coalition to assist you when you do determine to act (which I supported). Harder when you make claims about WMD and harboring terrorists that can not yet be substantiated. (True, nonetheless, IMO.) Harder still when you act like a petulant 6-year old who insists on taking his toys and going home at the slightest provocation.
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
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30
Rumpy Tunanator said:
-Sorry to get off topic (or on topic), but the title should be... "Who doesn't get to rebuild america's cities"!!!
-It should start with HUD and the feds, along with the real esta.....I better retract.
Here's a neat bill from Congressman DeFazio out here in Oregon, that was of course, neatly quashed by the party leadership:

"WASHINGTON, DC— Reps. Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.) and Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.) today introduced the “American Parity Act,” a bill to match, dollar-for-dollar, the funding promised by President Bush to rebuild Iraq, for projects here at home. The bill provides $1.7 billion for improvements in health care, education and infrastructure in America, to match the $1.7 billion included in the emergency supplemental bill to rebuild Iraq."


You can find the rest at:

http://www.house.gov/defazio/041003EDRelease.shtml
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
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674
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19
Gedunker said:
But we must remain engaged and we must ensure that others are engaged as well. Not particularly easy to do when you cannot build a broad consensus for action or a substantial coalition to assist you when you do determine to act (which I supported). Harder when you make claims about WMD and harboring terrorists that can not yet be substantiated. (True, nonetheless, IMO.) Harder still when you act like a petulant 6-year old who insists on taking his toys and going home at the slightest provocation.
G, I think we agree broadly, but disagree on detail. But hey, the fact we can do this here without resorting to threats is one of the things that makes this country great and me such a proud jingo!

I think we can only be responsible for our own engagement, that we are engaged - and that inviting others to take part is as far as we can go past that. What I think you' re characterizing as petulance (I could be misinterpreting here) I view as effective use of a diplomatic tool that has come to hand. I think we are using the contract list properly, and don't think it's factual or responsible to characterize it (as the media seems to be doing) only as an "f-you Iraq war obstructionist" list (else why would Israel be barred from contracting?).
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
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674
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19
Gedunker said:
But we must remain engaged and we must ensure that others are engaged as well. Not particularly easy to do when you cannot build a broad consensus for action or a substantial coalition to assist you when you do determine to act (which I supported). Harder when you make claims about WMD and harboring terrorists that can not yet be substantiated. (True, nonetheless, IMO.) Harder still when you act like a petulant 6-year old who insists on taking his toys and going home at the slightest provocation.
G, I think we agree broadly, but disagree on detail. But hey, the fact we can do this here without resorting to threats is one of the things that makes this country great and me such a proud jingo!

I think we can only be responsible for our own engagement, that we are engaged - and that inviting others to take part is as far as we can go past that. What I think you' re characterizing as petulance (I could be misinterpreting here) I view as effective use of a diplomatic tool that has come to hand. I think we are using the contract list properly, and don't think it's factual or responsible to characterize it (as the media seems to be doing) only as an "f-you Iraq war obstructionist" list (else why would Israel be barred from contracting?).
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
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4,473
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25
Mastiff said:
Here's a neat bill from Congressman DeFazio out here in Oregon, that was of course, neatly quashed by the party leadership:
You can find the rest at:

http://www.house.gov/defazio/041003EDRelease.shtml
Thanks for the link, I think this says it best...

“Where’s the plan to rebuild America?” asked DeFazio.
Although it should be directed towards older cities. The govt. already funds sprawl.

BOT, I think both of these wars (Irag & afganistan) would be justified if we actually had Sadam or Bin Ladian dead or alive. How do these guys slip away? What are they Harry Houdinies?

But I guess the way they look at it (govt), its a way to get the oil they need to further continue their funding for sprawl in america. Why is there no national planning policy like some countries have, like the Netherlands?
 

El Feo

Cyburbian
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674
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19
Rumpy Tunanator said:
Thanks for the link, I think this says it best...



Although it should be directed towards older cities. The govt. already funds sprawl.

BOT, I think both of these wars (Irag & afganistan) would be justified if we actually had Sadam or Bin Ladian dead or alive. How do these guys slip away? What are they Harry Houdinies?

But I guess the way they look at it (govt), its a way to get the oil they need to further continue their funding for sprawl in america. Why is there no national planning policy like some countries have, like the Netherlands?
Congratulations Rumpy - the Iraqi War is now officially justified! :)
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
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10,080
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34
Mastiff said:
Screw Pakistan... Let's go take over France!
I didn't (and still don't) support the war in Iraq or the idea of pre-emptive war. Even so, I could bend on that principle just this once.
 
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