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Why I love my city! [same-sex marriages start 12:01AM 17 May]

Achernar

Cyburbian
Messages
80
Points
4
In a little over three hours, history will be made a quarter-mile from my apartment at Cambridge City Hall. I believe Cambridge is the only city in Massachusetts to open its clerk's office this early, meaning the same-sex marriages legally approved here will be the first. I bought a camera just for the occasion. I don't even know anyone getting married, but I'm still very excited; I've never been this close to anything this significant. The city-sponsored celebration begins at 10:30PM.

I'm leaving my apartment now. Expect the country to have changed when I return.
 

Gedunker

Moderating
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
11,486
Points
41
I had a gigantic argument with a friend I consider otherwise someone of a tolerant temperament. This friend took the position that same-sex marriage is the end of western civilization as we know it. I took the position (which I still maintain) that government cannot deny the right of marriage to same-sex couples that it grants to male-female couples. He argued that a wedding/marriage before God must be between a man and a woman. I asked him where the Constitution was expressly authorized to support only the judeo-christian tradition. He argued the liturgical point and could not (or would not) even acknowledge the secular. I respect his viewpoint, but I personally believe that a truly democratic nation cannot confer real and substantial benefits to one group and deny them to a similarly situated group because religious tradition only recognizes man-woman marriages.

This is a tricky thread that can easily devolve into name-calling and hurt feelings. I think the Cyburbians I know from my time here are mature enough to have a fair and free discussion of this imporrtant issue.
 

Glasshouse

Cyburbian
Messages
120
Points
6
OK here goes my point.

If I run down the street naked, I'll be locked up and clasified a sex criminal.

Now if I ....ah....put my ...ah.....(well you get it)...where it naturally doesn't belong. Then I'm sane enought to vote?

Sorry not trying to be a biggot, I just believe there are guys and gals for a reason.

Bob
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
Marriage, as a status conferred upon two people by a civil authority, is a contract providing legal recognition of a relationship. It does not have any bearing on any religion, nor is it required to be recognized by any religion. In the same way, marriage is, in the context of any church, temple, mosque, etc., recognition by that religion of a social status of two individuals within that religion. It is in no way binding upon the state. Get over it. Two people wanting to establish legal standing as a couple should be entitled to do so.
 
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7,649
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29
I wrote a paper on gay marriage a few years back. It was required for some class. In the paper, I talked about an article I had read in Money magazine some time before that. The article was about a couple that were living together and expecting a baby. One was an artist and they were basically "hippie" types and kind of anti-establishment. The article detailed their trials with trying to arrange medical insurance, joint custody, life insurance, and a zillion other things. The boyfriend had started telling people his "wife" was pregnant because when he said his "girlfriend" was pregnant, he got "oh, sorry" rather than "congrats". He was tired of explaining that it was a happy occasion for them. By the end of the article, they were considering getting married because that was the simple solution to their thousand and one problems.

More recently, I mentioned that same article in a class I took on campus. The professor said that there is something like 160-some-odd rights associated with marriage, package deal. Then he told a few horror stories about gay couples and their utter lack of rights. One couple had lived together for many years -- like 2 decades -- and one of them died and the house legally was inherited by the dead guy's parents. The parents lovingly threw the remaining man out into the street with little more than the clothes on his back.

Bob, you may not be trying to be a bigot but to quote Yoda: there is no try, there is only do or do not. I know for a fact that there are members of this forum who are not straight. They may not say anything to your face because people like you make it dangerous for them to admit their sexual orientation. And I really can't continue without starting a flame war. I cannot think of a polite way to make any of my other points. Sigh.
 
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Achernar

Cyburbian
Messages
80
Points
4
Oh man, that was great. So much positive energy. And Glasshouse will be pleased to know that nobody tried to do what he tried to describe. Boston's clerk's office opens at 7:30. If I can wake up for that I just might go there too.

Incidentally, while I support same-sex marriage as much as anyone, I didn't really intend to defend or debate that in this thread. All I really wanted to do was say how proud I am of this city. The city council's resolution to open the clerk's office early was an excellent idea, and it just shows how much they support the admittedly extreme feelings of many of Cambridge's citizens.
 
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3,690
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27
We're also really excited here - My (gay for the newbies that don't know) brother in LA woke up early to call a couple of minutes ago to celebrate.

My feeling is that if a religion doesn't want to marry gay people - fine - that's their perogative, but the state really shouldn't be poking their nose into this issue - a loving couple is a loving couple, is a loving couple.

As for "protection of marriage" - I think the breeders have already pretty much dragged marriage through the mud - Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire, Britney Spears, etc. The gays can't make it much worse, IMO.

And for Glasshouse - I think people *should* be able to run naked down the street. Maybe then I wouldn't get so many looks when I'm breastfeeding at the mall. :D
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
Glasshouse said:
OK here goes my point.

If I run down the street naked, I'll be locked up and clasified a sex criminal.

Now if I ....ah....put my ...ah.....(well you get it)...where it naturally doesn't belong. Then I'm sane enought to vote?

Sorry not trying to be a biggot, I just believe there are guys and gals for a reason.

Bob
But Bob,,, you can run naked in the privacy of your own home... with whomever,, as long as they are consenting.
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
13,901
Points
57
Cardinal said:
Marriage, as a status conferred upon two people by a civil authority, is a contract providing legal recognition of a relationship.

As long as the above contract confers on same-sex couples the same package of rights (as MZ stated) as it would confer on different-sex couples, then I have no problem with it.

And as Downtown stated, heteros have a less than stellar track record when it comes to marriage.
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
Achernar said:
Oh man, that was great. So much positive energy. And Glasshouse will be pleased to know that nobody tried to do what he tried to describe. Boston's clerk's office opens at 7:30. If I can wake up for that I just might go there too.

Incidentally, while I support same-sex marriage as much as anyone, I didn't really intend to defend or debate that in this thread. All I really wanted to do was say how proud I am of this city. The city council's resolution to open the clerk's office early was an excellent idea, and it just shows how much they support the admittedly extreme feelings of many of Cambridge's citizens.
Cambridge is a great place and so is Massachusetts. Provincetown/Cape Cod won't have single room left this summer...as the tourism economy is going to soar.
 

el Guapo

Capitalist
Messages
5,995
Points
31
Chet said:
AMEN . I hate parades.

Deal - I'll notify my Republican Overlords of our agreement. They should stop opposing it in 24-72 hours. Please go forth and enjoy the same rights and responsibilities as we "breeders" and good luck. :)

One thing I anticipate that will go easier in the gay marriages will be the toilet seat will never move.
 
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mendelman said:
And as Downtown stated, heteros have a less than stellar track record when it comes to marriage.
Not to mention that anal sex is hardly limited to homosexual men. It always kills me that it is "okay" if a man wants to do that to a woman but it is An Unnatural Act if he wants to do it to another man. Go figure.

This world is totally hypocritical.
 

mendelman

Unfrozen Caveman Planner
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
13,901
Points
57
el Guapo said:
One thing I anticipate that will go easier in the gay marriages will be the toilet seat will never move.
Well....for gay women, at least.
 
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7,649
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29
Downtown said:
um.... NO!

:-D :-D :-D
I have read pretty extensively on the topic of sex. And I have had a lot of private conversations with men. Most MEN think it is "okay" (actually, most men seem to think it is more than "okay"). In fact, an awful lot of them seem to complain that their wives agree with you. :-}
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
Well... I love Sharon Osbournes quote on the topic (from memory) "I don't know why people are so opposed, becuase once you get married, who has sex anyway?"
 

otterpop

Cyburbian
Messages
6,655
Points
28
On one hand I am for gay marriages because why should only us heterosexuals suffer, but, on the other hand, haven't gay people suffered enough?
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,173
Points
51
Michele Zone said:
Most MEN think it is "okay" (actually, most men seem to think it is more than "okay").
Thank you for saying most and not all... Because some of us have a bit more respect for a lady.

Back on the original thread topic, I will admit that I am not sure where I stand on this issue. I have a few friends that are gay, but I do not know all that much about how it might or might not have a detrimental effect on society or culture. I guess I would wait to see, and maybe talk about this a bit more with people before I come to my own conclusion.
 

SlaveToTheGrind

Cyburbian
Messages
1,444
Points
27
Michele Zone said:
It always kills me that it is "okay" if a man wants to do that to a woman but it is An Unnatural Act if he wants to do it to another man.
To clarify before I make the following statement. I have no experience in this whatsoever.

Some men like women to use the right "marital aid" to do that "act".
 

Rumpy Tunanator

Cyburbian
Messages
4,473
Points
25
Michele Zone said:
Most MEN think it is "okay" (actually, most men seem to think it is more than "okay"). In fact, an awful lot of them seem to complain that their wives agree with you. :-}
Some women like it.
 
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7,649
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29
You know, as for michaelskis and Downtown's comments: I did not say anything about my personal sexual preferences and I have a general policy to not discuss such things in public. That is on a "need to know" basis and the World Wide Web does not need to know.

Personal sexual preferences are kind of like food preferences: they are partly a visceral reaction and they are incredibly hard to change. In other words, some things simply gross people out. If you happen to be grossed out, I, personally, do not think that gives you the right to pass judgment on the morality of another human being who is not grossed out by it and may even like it. Whether a man "respects women" or not has nothing whatsoever to do with his sexual preferences. Liking or disliking anal sex says nothing whatsoever about how a man treats women or whether or not he respects them.

And discussing that further would really not be work safe. I object to such statements because they are not that different from Bob's comments: the people who object risk getting accused of all kinds of things, regardless of the basis of their objection. It is a subtle means to shut people up and close down any hope of a real conversation completely. My point was just that Bob's comment does not strike me as a valid objection to homosexual marriage, which is about human rights. There are heterosexual men who do all the same things that homosexual men do, they just do them with women. Dragging in such details really does not belong in a discussion of human rights at all.

EDIT: I would like to add that I think it is really a bad policy to bring up sexual practices as an aspect of the discussion. That opens the door to a nasty precedent. If the government denies homosexuals the right to marry based on their "weird" sexual practices (such as anal sex or oral sex), you better be really scared. Do you really want the government to decide that you have to take a lengthy questionairre detailing your sexual history before you can marry??? If they say "anal sex" is the reason homosexual men cannot marry, do we let homosexual women marry since that isn't generally one of their practices??? Do we deny heterosexuals the right to marry if they like this practice? Do we return to the Spanish Inquisition and allow government officials to examine your private parts for evidence??? :-c :-#

And I could go on. The details of what happens in bed between two consenting adults is a private matter and should remain so.
 
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Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,623
Points
34
Mod Note: Let's keep this thread on its original topic lest one of the mods close it. (I know I'm guilty too...)
 

Wannaplan?

Bounty Hunter
Messages
3,212
Points
29
michaelskis said:
but I do not know all that much about how it might or might not have a detrimental effect on society or culture.
How could marriage betwen same-sex couples have a detrimental effect on society or culture? This is absurd, to think that two people who are in love and are ready to make a commitment to one another can negatively impact our society.
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
I can only hope at some point in time everyone is allowed to publicly profess their love for someone else by having the right to take vows. I can only imagine if the world was flipped how awful I would feel everyday knowing my love for my fiance was "wrong" and "bad for society".
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
And that you cannot get health insurance for them and cannot own a house with them and a zillion other things. It is extremely hard for two completely unrelated people to get a mortgage together, which is why homosexual couples often buy property in the name of one person or the other. They trust each other and co-mingle all assets -- and when the relationship ends (whether through a break up or death), the person whose name is not on anything has no legal rights whatsoever. If a man and woman "live in sin" long enough, she can sue for assets based on laws concerning "common law" marriage. In Georgia, I believe it is a common law marriage after 7 years. But if you live with your same sex partner for 2 decades, you get zilch. It is really horrible. They are literally thrown out into the street by relatives on a regular basis. The relatives may not have spoken to the dead guy in years, but they still have legal rights. |-)
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
Michele Zone said:
And that you cannot get health insurance for them and cannot own a house with them and a zillion other things. It is extremely hard for two completely unrelated people to get a mortgage together, which is why homosexual couples often buy property in the name of one person or the other. They trust each other and co-mingle all assets -- and when the relationship ends (whether through a break up or death), the person whose name is not on anything has no legal rights whatsoever. If a man and woman "live in sin" long enough, she can sue for assets based on laws concerning "common law" marriage. In Georgia, I believe it is a common law marriage after 7 years. But if you live with your same sex partner for 2 decades, you get zilch. It is really horrible. They are literally thrown out into the street by relatives on a regular basis. The relatives may not have spoken to the dead guy in years, but they still have legal rights. |-)
So true, although they could title the property with deed of trust to the other person.. and I think you can get a loan together since I'm buying a home with my fiance and we're not married. My dogs have mroe rights than same sex couples, hell, they even have health coverage.
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
Westchester County, NY has a domestic partnership registry. It provides a foundation or structure for businesses and governments to allocate benefits to domestic partners.
 
Messages
7,649
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29
Habanero said:
So true, although they could title the property with deed of trust to the other person.. and I think you can get a loan together since I'm buying a home with my fiance and we're not married. My dogs have mroe rights than same sex couples, hell, they even have health coverage.
Yes, there are things you can do -- if you KNOW about it or research it. Heterosexuals have the right to blithely go about their lives without researching obscure means to cover themselves. I live with a medical handicap and I can live a full life, but it takes a LOT more effort to fully participate. There are days when I can't manage that kind of effort and it means I am left out of things. We all have personal limitations, whether time, money, knowledge, whatever. Making it tons harder to get the same things done is discrimination and, for many people, it completely excludes them. As a medically handicapped person, I have the right to ask for reasonable accommodation so I can participate fully in life. Homosexuals are told "You can participate ONLY if go the extra mile. We won't stop you. We will just make it really, really hard." (And then there are the folks who still beat up gays just for being gay. The folks who openly say "it is unnatural! ICK" inadvertently lend support to such barbarians. ICK.)
 

boiker

Cyburbian
Messages
3,889
Points
26
michaelskis said:
Thank you for saying most and not all... Because some of us have a bit more respect for a lady.

Back on the original thread topic, I will admit that I am not sure where I stand on this issue. I have a few friends that are gay, but I do not know all that much about how it might or might not have a detrimental effect on society or culture. I guess I would wait to see, and maybe talk about this a bit more with people before I come to my own conclusion.

gay marriages will allow gay couples to have more tax refund money to spend fixing up their historic homes.
[/stereotyping]

it's great for them.. I'm happy that one community to a step and gave equal opportunity to all sexual leanings.
 

Cardinal

Cyburbian
Messages
10,080
Points
34
Michele Zone said:
The details of what happens in bed between two consenting adults is a private matter and should remain so.
[/Devil's Advocate]Why just two consenting adults? Is this another form of discrimination? If marriage is about sexual relationships, then what about a man who wants more than one wife, a woman who wants more than one husband, or a trio where one may be bisexual? We also prohibit marriage which is defined as incestuous, though whether that extends to first or second cousins varies by state. Are these prohibitions valid or should they be reconsdered?[/Devil's Advocate]
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
Cardinal said:
[/Devil's Advocate]Why just two consenting adults? Is this another form of discrimination? If marriage is about sexual relationships, then what about a man who wants more than one wife, a woman who wants more than one husband, or a trio where one may be bisexual? We also prohibit marriage which is defined as incestuous, though whether that extends to first or second cousins varies by state. Are these prohibitions valid or should they be reconsdered?[/Devil's Advocate]
Very good point. I may very well be wrong.. but aren't there health issues of having siblings mate? As for allowing multiple wives...or husbands... I guess it should be allowed. .. as long as all parties agree. ...and, as long as we end the parades. ;-)
 
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3,690
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27
tsc said:
Maybe they should prepare an EAF!
OMG - I just spewed coffee at that one! :D

Kissing Cousins- there is actually very little scientific data that supports the argument against first cousins marrying, many states have reversed their ban on it.
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
Cardinal said:
[/Devil's Advocate]Why just two consenting adults? Is this another form of discrimination? If marriage is about sexual relationships, then what about a man who wants more than one wife, a woman who wants more than one husband, or a trio where one may be bisexual? We also prohibit marriage which is defined as incestuous, though whether that extends to first or second cousins varies by state. Are these prohibitions valid or should they be reconsdered?[/Devil's Advocate]
Oh, you are so right. My mistake. "Foot in Mouth Disease". I am so brain washed by Western Culture. Muslims allow for 4 wives. Do you know that you cannot immigrate to the U.S. if you have ever been in a polygamous relationship?

That gets a whole lot trickier but I don't see why not, really. :)
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
as an advocate for alt sexualities im THRILLED to see gays getting married. Maybe one day society will accept all forms of CONSENTING ADULT relationships.
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
Michele Zone said:
Oh, you are so right. My mistake. "Foot in Mouth Disease". I am so brain washed by Western Culture. Muslims allow for 4 wives. Do you know that you cannot immigrate to the U.S. if you have ever been in a polygamous relationship?

That gets a whole lot trickier but I don't see why not, really. :)
oh my... it could just really tumble down hill... lesbian polygamy...into an amazon nation...lol!

But,, it probably all boils down to big business... corporations have targetted gays and lesbians.. as they, duh, realize that there is a potential for globs of disposable income.
 

Richmond Jake

You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
Messages
18,313
Points
44
Cardinal said:
[/Devil's Advocate] (snip)... then what about a man who wants more than one wife, a woman who wants more than one husband... (snip) [/Devil's Advocate]
OT: What fool would want more than one spouse? (Notice no winkie face.)
 

Duke Of Dystopia

Cyburbian
Messages
2,713
Points
24
Michele Zone said:
......Do you really want the government to decide that you have to take a lengthy questionairre detailing your sexual history before you can marry??? If they say "anal sex" is the reason homosexual men cannot marry, do we let homosexual women marry since that isn't generally one of their practices??? Do we deny heterosexuals the right to marry if they like this practice? Do we return to the Spanish Inquisition and allow government officials to examine your private parts for evidence??? :-c :-# .......

The scary part is it is ALREADY happened.
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
RichmondJake said:
OT: What fool would want more than one spouse? (Notice no winkie face.)
I'd have one husband for the lovin', one husband for the yardwork, one gearhead/husband to take care of anything car related, and I'd really like to marry one, aw hell, all of the Fab 5 so I can have the cutest clothes and snarkiest drinking mates ever. :-D
 

Achernar

Cyburbian
Messages
80
Points
4
I find this strange. I overheard dozens of supporters last night talking for hours. Not one person mentioned sex, even well after the children had gone home. Why is it that when I bring it up here, the topic turns to sex? The cases in the courts deal with economic equality and human rights. And though I don't presume to speak for them, I think the couples are getting married because they love each other. These are the reasons that this issue is so important to many people; sex really has little to do with it.
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
Achernar said:
I find this strange. I overheard dozens of supporters last night talking for hours. Not one person mentioned sex, even well after the children had gone home. Why is it that when I bring it up here, the topic turns to sex? The cases in the courts deal with economic equality and human rights. And though I don't presume to speak for them, I think the couples are getting married because they love each other. These are the reasons that this issue is so important to many people; sex really has little to do with it.
It's because everything here turns to sex!! :p
 

Richmond Jake

You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
Messages
18,313
Points
44
Habanero said:
I'd have one husband for the lovin', one husband for the yardwork, one gearhead/husband to take care of anything car related, and I'd really like to marry one, aw hell, all of the Fab 5 so I can have the cutest clothes and snarkiest drinking mates ever. :-D
You tramp. ;-)
 
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3,690
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27
Achernar said:
I think the couples are getting married because they love each other. These are the reasons that this issue is so important to many people; sex really has little to do with it.
The reasons why this all devolved into sex talk is primarily because this is what most threads will devolve into, if given the opportunity, and that for many people, homosexuality is about who you have sex with, not who you love. I'm very hopeful that with the legalization of gay marriages, it will more increasingly be the latter that people define homosexuality with.
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
Achernar said:
I find this strange. I overheard dozens of supporters last night talking for hours. Not one person mentioned sex, even well after the children had gone home. Why is it that when I bring it up here, the topic turns to sex? The cases in the courts deal with economic equality and human rights. And though I don't presume to speak for them, I think the couples are getting married because they love each other. These are the reasons that this issue is so important to many people; sex really has little to do with it.
very true... but the point of polygamists is very interesting... which I personally would find unappealing... being a monogamist. But...I would not stop others from pursuing it...
 

Richmond Jake

You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!
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18,313
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44
Habanero said:
Aw, you can take a husband now too!! :-D
No, I'm not a switch hitter (not that there's anything wrong with switch hitters).
 
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