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Women of Cyburbia - need help with comeback

JNL

Cyburbian
Messages
2,449
Points
25
I just went to buy a replacement belt for a belt sander from a tool store (am re-finishing a set of drawers). I knew exactly what I needed and the guy behind the counter went and got it for me, then he asks me, "Is your husband letting you play with his power tools?". What a sexist a** :-@ I was momentarily speechless, then I replied, "No, a woman at work is giving me a hand". Afterwards I was feeling quite annoyed and wished I had come up with a smarter reply!

Maybe I could have said, "No, it's my girlfriend's. Does your wife let you play with hers?". What would you have said??
 

Glasshouse

Cyburbian
Messages
120
Points
6
Should have said "I can't believe your husband let's you work around all thease guy's"

That would have cooked his goose.

Bob
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
wow! nothing to say but WOW that took some serious...well you know whats. And lack of brains.
 

JNL

Cyburbian
Messages
2,449
Points
25
JNL said:
"Is your husband letting you play with his power tools?"
I still can't believe how many sexist stereotypical assumptions he managed to fit into one sentence!! Let's see...

1. Is your husband

I'm not married, but whether I am or not is none of his business. I was there to buy a belt for a belt sander, not discuss my marital status.

2. Is your husband letting

Damned if I'm going to wait round for my man to "let" me do anything! Not that I have a man... but that's not relevant - see 1.

3. Is your husband letting you play

Play?? Hello? I'm using a power tool, dumba$$!

4. Is your husband letting you play with his power tools?

Whose power tools? Why shouldn't the sander be mine? Although it's not, it belongs to a female co-worker.

And finally...
5. "See you next time!"

Fat chance.

[/rant]
 

JNA

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
25,774
Points
61
Bet'ya he didn't even know his grit # 's.
but he scored a <40 with his remark.
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
"No, honey, I am an urban planner. That means I build cities. Today, I am building one from the ground up."

You could also try "I am a city planner. It's complicated, so clearly you wouldn't understand it. I will let you go back to playing with your toys while I build a city."

Or, um,
"Why? Are you jealous? Doesn't your husband let you play with his power tools once in a while?"
 

Glasshouse

Cyburbian
Messages
120
Points
6
JNL said:
I still can't believe how many sexist stereotypical assumptions he managed to fit into one sentence!! Let's see...

1. Is your husband

I'm not married, but whether I am or not is none of his business. I was there to buy a belt for a belt sander, not discuss my marital status.

2. Is your husband letting

Damned if I'm going to wait round for my man to "let" me do anything! Not that I have a man... but that's not relevant - see 1.

3. Is your husband letting you play

Play?? Hello? I'm using a power tool, dumba$$!

4. Is your husband letting you play with his power tools?

Whose power tools? Why shouldn't the sander be mine? Although it's not, it belongs to a female co-worker.

And finally...
5. "See you next time!"

Fat chance.

[/rant]


You go girl!

Bob
 
Messages
3,690
Points
27
Zoning Goddess said:
"You have 30 seconds to get your manager over here."
I'm completely with ZG - the guy was insulting and condescending and completely inappropriate. He was totally out of line and his manager should know about it. :-@
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
Downtown said:
I'm completely with ZG - the guy was insulting and condescending and completely inappropriate. He was totally out of line and his manager should know about it. :-@
I agree!

But anyway a quick reply...in case he is the manager
"So, does your husband let you keep the money from this meager job as "play money"?
 

Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
18,698
Points
69
JNL said:
I"Is your husband letting you play with his power tools?". What a sexist a** :-@ I was momentarily speechless, then I replied, "No, a woman at work is giving me a hand".
Please, please tell me this isn't the norm for New Zealand. Although such sexism can be found in the States, it's quite rare. Home Depot and Lowes commercials often target women, and you'll find female employees (not just cashiers, but working in the ... oh, plumbing or electrial department) in many hardware strores and box box home improvement centers.

It might be fun to counter with something like "Yeah, my husband is a pretty progressive guy. He even lets me drive, vote and leave the house without a veil!"
 
Messages
3,690
Points
27
Dan said:
Please, please tell me this isn't the norm for New Zealand. Although such sexism can be found in the States, it's quite rare.
Not to get into it, but really - not so much.

On administrative professionals day, we had a temp covering our phones and front desk while our admins were all out at lunch. As I was walking out the door to run to DPW, a contractor was talking to the temp about "Where is everyone." I countered that "It's secretarys' day - the boss sent them all out to lunch." He smiled at me and asked "Well, how come you got left at the office?" WTF!
 

Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
Dan said:
Please, please tell me this isn't the norm for New Zealand. Although such sexism can be found in the States, it's quite rare.
I'd have to disagree, Dan. I've seen more sexism than my fair share. I've come in contact with several men that have asked "who does the hiring around here, don't they ever hire men?!", demanded to only work with a man in my department, and have also been complete a$$es to every woman in my department but as soon as a man tells them what to do they stop fishing for planners. I've also had the same from women, they think because I'm female I shouldn't be working. I've been asked several times why my husband "makes me" work and they certainly hope he isn't home raising our children.
 
Messages
3,690
Points
27
Habanero said:
I'd have to disagree, Dan. I've seen more sexism than my fair share.
I think that almost every female planner and engineer I know would disagree with Dan. My civil engineer girlfriends have stories that are unbelievable about how they are treated on job sites, etc.

Did I mention my former supervisor that used to occasionally appreciate how "cute" my "ass" was in pants?
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
When I was the Zoning Administrator for a decent sized city in the north east... despite having a first name that is rarely a man's.... I have had people say... I need to speak with "_________" and when I said,,, "this is" The reply was..."Oh, your a woman?"

I also had a very irrate person who told me I shouldn't be in charge of such things that I should be home washing dishes. Then they asked to speak to my boss... who happened to be a woman... then asked to speak to her boss,, upon finding out that my boss was a woman. I told them .... well then you will have to speak to the mayor... who happened to be a woman! Just wasn't his day.

I grew up one of 4 daughters on a farm.... and if I wanted to spend anytime with my dad...it was being his helper. I know a lot about carpentry, cars and tons of other stuff <thanks Dad!!> I get it all the time... guys assuming you know squat because you are a woman. It is so infuriating.....

I was test driving a car...and the guy told me I wasn't allowed to try the vehicle over 50mph.....just one of the many stupid things he said to me.....
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
My last job I spent the first year trying to get the men in the devlopment community used to working with a young attractive woman. I sent more out of my office with their tails between my legs for "little honey" and "sweetie pie" comments than I care to recall. One new lawyer came in and just locked eyes on my chest, after trying to speak to him for a few moments (he was there to talk about a huge new development for his boss) I had to point to my chest and say...

"This is Mutt and Jeff, they are not here to talk about your subdivision but I am and my name is ***. If your here to talk to me then talk to ME if your here to stare go down to Lee St and find a strip joint"

The young kid turned all red, grab'd his bag and left without saying a word. His boss called not 30 min later wondering why his new atty was all upset-I told him everything and the kid was back on the street jobless that day. 8-!

Or showing up on a job site to do a landscap inspection and you ask where the permit box is to sign off and the guys all grab themselves and tell me to "sign here"

Of course who could forget the nutjobs with the cell tower folks who tried to send me ROSES to get me to aprove their plan. That got a NASTY letter from our City Atty.

Sexism is live and well.
 

tsc

Cyburbian
Messages
1,905
Points
23
PlannerGirl said:
"This is Mutt and Jeff, they are not here to talk about your subdivision but I am and my name is ***. If your here to talk to me then talk to ME if your here to stare go down to Lee St and find a strip joint"

.
:b: :b: :b: :b:

Good one....
 

michaelskis

Cyburbian
Messages
20,155
Points
51
You could have responded by saying:

“I have never had any complaint from any guy about the way that I have handled any of his tools.” But then again, I guess that you have never had a girl handle any of yours... and never will.”

I can relate... when I bought curtains for my apartment, and a female clerk commented that my wife did a great job of picking out such nice curtains and that I was a good man to pick them up for her... I noticed that she had a wedding ring, and I mention that I was not married, and in a surprising yet inquisitive tone asked “What? Your husband is not that creative around the house?” She just looked at me with confusion then smiled and said, “No, I guess he is not.”

So it does do both ways...

PlannerGirl said:
"This is Mutt and Jeff, they are not here to talk about your subdivision but I am and my name is ***. If your here to talk to me then talk to ME if your here to stare go down to Lee St and find a strip joint"
You Rock! My little sister is the same way... if you and her ever met, I am sure that you two would have allot of stories to share. It is funny because she is this blond with more wit than most anyone I know. The best part is, just like you, she does not hesitate to put guys right back in their place.
 
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Habanero

Cyburbian
Messages
3,241
Points
27
PlannerGirl said:
"This is Mutt and Jeff, they are not here to talk about your subdivision but I am and my name is ***. If your here to talk to me then talk to ME if your here to stare go down to Lee St and find a strip joint"
Bwahahahaha, I love it! I've asked men if they could pay more attention if I put the map across my chest.
 
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PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
of course not, your blocking the view. Why cant I have...nice bits AND brains? Some how I dont think Id last long if I were a wall flower in this line of work.

And thank you, im quite proud of my ability to ride the broom stick or crack the whip at work when folks get stupid.
 

Repo Man

Cyburbian
Messages
2,549
Points
25
My aunt is widowed. Her husband (my uncle) died very young in his 30s. Anyhow she was looking at a new car and the salesman had the audacity to ask "Do you have your husbands permission to buy this today?" She walked out and went to another dealer.

When I was in college I went with my mom to help her pick out some high-end audio speakers for my dad. The guy at the store asked my mom if she had permission from her husband to buy them. She also walked out.

I guess I don't understand how someone could even think of making jokes like JNL had to deal with or have the gall to suggest that a woman needs her husband permission to buy anything.
 

biscuit

Cyburbian
Messages
3,904
Points
25
PlannerGirl said:
Why cant I have...nice bits AND brains?
My two (Or would that be three? ;-) ) favorite features on a woman. :-D

I don't understand that in this day and age how people could still carry attitudes like the ones you ladies are recalling. Honostly, it's simply inexcusable that someone would be so demeaning to a woman. All I know is that having been raised around a family full of strong Southern woman, anything less than respect would have been meet with a something a lot harsher than a snappy comeback.
 

PlannerGirl

Cyburbian Plus
Messages
6,377
Points
29
Rest assured Biscut one lawyer was jobless after his insult to me and I have refused to sign off on more than one permit when the guys on site were pigs. When the word got out that the "little ladies" were serious the BS stop'd fast.
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
PlannerGirl said:
Why cant I have...nice bits AND brains?
Some woman once said that she doesn't think there is any correlation between a woman's breast size and her IQ but there is a correlation between her breast size and the IQ of men, which seems to lower in the presence of the well-endowed woman. :-D
 

JNL

Cyburbian
Messages
2,449
Points
25
Dan said:
Please, please tell me this isn't the norm for New Zealand.
It's not the norm, but I would say it is alive and well, in some places more than others. Our Prime Minister is a woman, and several of the top jobs in this country are held by women. Attitudes are changing.... s l o w l y........

I'm amazed at some of the sexism you women have experienced in your jobs! 8-! Sexual harassment in the workplace is dealt with quite seriously here.

Repo Man - the scary thing is, this guy was not joking at all! He was this middle-aged guy talking down to me and giving me advice I didn't need.

"Here's a tip for you", he said, "You can go to a hardware store and ask if they have any miss-tints, which is a cheap way to get paint".

"Yeah but my drawers are Rimu [a type of NZ wood] and I am going to varnish them" I said.

"Well don't forget about miss-tints!"

:-\
 

Plannerbabs

Cyburbian
Messages
1,037
Points
23
Yeesh. I've been lucky so far at work, several of the other staff members, including a few who rank above me, are women, as are several of the people we work with. Hardware stores, though....it kind of depends on which one. I've been to some where gender wasn't an issue at all, they used all the technical terms when explaining mudding or re-doing the bobber thing in the toilet, and others where they were concerned about the "messy" work I was about to start and how it would just ruin the housekeeping. |-) As far as car dealers go, though, I've found they treat you with much more respect if you go up to them and say, "I'd like to test-drive the Machismo six-speed with the 4.7-liter engine. I've heard it has great low-end torque, and really flies when the turbo's wound up." Dealers tend to respect people more who know manual transmissions and the lingo. They'll also let you drive fast! :-D
 

Glasshouse

Cyburbian
Messages
120
Points
6
Repo Man said:
My aunt is widowed. Her husband (my uncle) died very young in his 30s. Anyhow she was looking at a new car and the salesman had the audacity to ask "Do you have your husbands permission to buy this today?" She walked out and went to another dealer.

When I was in college I went with my mom to help her pick out some high-end audio speakers for my dad. The guy at the store asked my mom if she had permission from her husband to buy them. She also walked out.

I guess I don't understand how someone could even think of making jokes like JNL had to deal with or have the gall to suggest that a woman needs her husband permission to buy anything.

About the car salesman:

It's standard sales practice to try and connect husband/wife at the sale. Because if you don't it leaves them an easy out. "I'll have to talk to my wife/husband and call you back later."

He may have been trying to escape that and just said it wrong.

Bob
 

Zoning Goddess

Cyburbian
Messages
13,852
Points
39
I had fun buying a car when my son was a toddler and I was newly divorced. I took my hulking little brother along. The idiot salesman kept trying to talk to my brother who finally said "Talk to her. She's my big sister. I'm just the babysitter today."

What Dan said. I've never encountered any sexist morons among the staff at Home Depot or Lowe's. But elsewhere.... developers and their reps are big offenders, as are the referenced car salesmen, and the occasional home contractor (usually Yankees with Italian names ); sorry, Italian Yankees. ;-)
 

Gedunker

Moderating
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Moderator
Messages
11,483
Points
41
My mom emigrated to the US as a Dane right after WWII -- came to the US and got homesick, went back to Denmark. She found a job at a major bank/finance company in Copenhagen and on her first day noted that all the women in the workplace were preparing lunch, setting tables with linen, china and silverware, and getting ready to serve the male personnel. After mom asked what was going on, she said "Lort! Den er ikke rigtig!" which translates loosely to "S**t! That ain't right" and she left right then and there, never to return. She came back to the US where she eventually met the man who would become my dad.

Mrs. Gedunker and I have bought vehicles together without issue. But, I think she often gets *taken* when she has more than routine work done on her Honda. "Yeah, we did the tune-up and we replaced the belts while we were at it" |-)
 

JNL

Cyburbian
Messages
2,449
Points
25
Gedunker said:
Mrs. Gedunker and I have bought vehicles together without issue. But, I think she often gets *taken* when she has more than routine work done on her Honda. "Yeah, we did the tune-up and we replaced the belts while we were at it" |-)
If the garage finds any "extra" work that needs to be done, I get them to hold off until I can visit and then I make them show me! And I use it as an opportunity to learn. I pester them with questions :-D
 
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sisterceleste

Cyburbian
Messages
1,519
Points
22
Dan said:
It might be fun to counter with something like "Yeah, my husband is a pretty progressive guy. He even lets me drive, vote and leave the house without a veil!"
I like Dan's answer!!!!!
For my first 5 years of planning, I was the only female in a planning office and in charge of development proposals. It was a tough job dealing with the development community who failed to take me seriously. Also I am not married to a handy man, so the power tools in the house all belong to me. My dear husband cooks and does windows and floors, I put things together, paint, refinish stuff. We have a great division of labor in the house. It works for us.
 

SkeLeton

Cyburbian
Messages
4,853
Points
26
Hahahahah and you call yourselves the deveolped world, eh? :p

Sadly, female workers and women in general are discriminated here, due to our strong sexist past... :( But it's changing... s l o w l y, as JNL said, but at least it's changing, and to a lesser sexist society.
 

Mastiff

Gunfighter
Messages
7,181
Points
30
Downtown said:
I'm completely with ZG - the guy was insulting and condescending and completely inappropriate. He was totally out of line and his manager should know about it. :-@
Hey wait now... This thread is titled "Women of Cyburbia... etc.", is that sexist?! :-c


Seriously, I agree with ZG, but I think I'd have used just a little bit more of a cutting remark to send him off. Some thing like:

"Oh, isn't that just clever... or, at least it was in the 1950's. <pause for effect> These days, it's harassment, and can get you fired or reprimanded. So, why don't you run along and fetch your supervisor to see which one you're going to get today! <then smile real big>

If he smiles back... pauses... tries to apologize... you say, "I mean now." <clench jaws>
 

tlynn

Member
Messages
1
Points
0
hi. im sorry i know this is an old thread...or if it seems
wow u guys are good with comebacks. impressive
anyway, i'm on another forum and here's a post between another member and i:


(1 member) i was talking about american
nah but i know we will most likley lose, i don't care its soccer, almost of theml are all faking bitches. I hate when they fake getting hurt.

(me) lol, u confuse meh more than anyone else on this board (because he usually doesnt make sense)


(the other member) Hey princess this is guy talk, go and wash the dishes or something......j/k


it bothers me and i don't want to show him i'm mad. i know he was just kiddng but i just want a good comeback so he knows to back off. He's always making smart comments and i want to put him in his place. If any of you have any good comments, i'd REALLY appreciate it, thank you.

i was thinking something like....who are you calling princess or "but i dont have too, u already did them" lol sounds weak so please...need help
 

Chet

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
10,623
Points
34
Glasshouse said:
About the car salesman:

It's standard sales practice to try and connect husband/wife at the sale. Because if you don't it leaves them an easy out. "I'll have to talk to my wife/husband and call you back later."

He may have been trying to escape that and just said it wrong.

Bob
I dunno. When my ex wife and I test drove her Subaru, the salesman was a total jag. In was test driving, and the sales guy came along for the ride. We followed a woman test driver out of the lot, and he said, "Oh, we won't follow them. You know women don;t drive like us". My ex laid into him when we got back to the dealership, and I had to go elsewhere to get the car.
 

Dan

Dear Leader
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
18,698
Points
69
tlynn said:
hi. im sorry i know this is an old thread...or if it seems
wow u guys are good with comebacks. impressive
anyway, i'm on another forum and here's a post between another member and i:


(1 member) i was talking about american
nah but i know we will most likley lose, i don't care its soccer, almost of theml are all faking bitches. I hate when they fake getting hurt.

(me) lol, u confuse meh more than anyone else on this board (because he usually doesnt make sense) [snip]


Moderator note:

Welcome to Cybubria!

I have to tell you that the median age of a user here is 31. People might not take you seriously if you post in netspeak. Besides, forum rules prohibit netpeak and IM shortland ("u" for "you", etc) unless someone is making fun of it.. Thanks.
 

dobopoq

Cyburbian
Messages
1,002
Points
21
He Was Flirting With You

JNL: The guy's comment was probably aimed at learning whether you are married. He doubtlessly was trying to flirt. His comment may not have been PC, but would a man going to a department store to buy a dress be any less likely to encounter a, "looking to pick out something for the wife?" comment from a female clerk?

"Oh, that's right, men aren't supposed to wear feminine things that might call attention to their appearance. That power is reserved for women." Or so gender socialization says. And guess what, it also says that "being handy and knowing how to fix things are what is expected of men".

I can understand why his comment annoyed you, but being a man working in what is stereotypically, a male dominated field of interest, where female customers are far outnumbered by male customers, is it really that surprising that someone in his position would say such a thing? Owing to the dearth of females, when he does see one, he probably gets more macho than he otherwise would be if there were more females around. Let's remember that males don't rely on drawing excessive attention from their appearance as a way of attracting the opposite sex, as women do. Women don't have to be aggressive to find mates. Men that don't initiate, and take advantage of social opportunities as he probably was trying to, end up as losers, who in Darwinian terms - fail to pass their genes on through sexual reproduction. Enduring comments such as his, are the price you must pay for living in a society that still socializes females to emphasize their appearance, and males to be doers and initiators.

You certainly would have been justified to give him s***, or ask for the manager; I'm just trying to remind you that sexist comments should be no surprise coming from an environment that is as sex-segregated as a tool store. Men get accused all the time of being sleazy or womanizing - Well that's just the consequential flip side of the mainstream socialization of females to be passive and vain.
 
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Messages
185
Points
7
The guy sounds like a sexist idiot.... remember- if he talks to you like that- that means he talks to other women like that... too bad for him!
 

Bear Up North

Cyburbian Emeritus
Messages
9,329
Points
31
Wow, you chicks are on the rampage when your husbands let you out of the kitchen. Don't want to pixx-off you babes .

;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

I better start my truck with a radio control. :-D

Bear

(PS - The guy was an idiot sexist on the make.)
 

clare2582

Cyburbian
Messages
194
Points
7
I haven't experienced this much... occaisionally at work, and at Radio Shack when they try to sell me cell phone accessories and bunches of really expensive connector-things for whatever kind of cables I'm buying (I guess I bring this on myself when I tell the guy "Uhm, I need one of those switchy-things that hooks your TV, VCR and DVD player together?")

What I really HATE is getting my car serviced or going anywhere NEAR car garages. I once had to get the plates off a totalled car- and the guys at the shop quite literally stopped what they were doing and looked me up and down/winked/gave me "the eye", partnered with an unpleasant silence. I just looked at them and asked "Well, are any of you going to do this for me or what?!". I felt like a piece of meat, and hated it....
then I had an issue with a car dealer- I had to take a car in to be serviced, and the whole time he was just STARING at my chest. I'll admit, this doesn't happen often, and I just kept thinking "Man... what do I have on my shirt?!?" Then I realized on the way home.... what a pervert! I'm happy to know he no longer works there.
 

JusticeZero

Cyburbian
Messages
367
Points
12
Going to have to agree there. I don't do things as a rule that would make me be sleazy, womanizing, and sexist.. but as a result, I don't get a date unless SHE asks ME out. And that simply does not happen. But ask women about their thoughts on asking a man out and you get a chorus of 'Oh, I couldn't do that!' ..well, you get what you reward, and if you make only sleaze succeed, you will see a lot of sleaze. It's not much different than mandating large setbacks and expansive minimum lot sizes in a place, and zoning the place single-family, then being angry about it springing up in a low density high income subdivision.
dobopoq said:
Let's remember that males don't rely on drawing excessive attention from their appearance as a way of attracting the opposite sex, as women do. Women don't have to be aggressive to find mates. Men that don't initiate, and take advantage of social opportunities as he probably was trying to, end up as losers, who in Darwinian terms - fail to pass their genes on through sexual reproduction. Enduring comments such as his, are the price you must pay for living in a society that still socializes females to emphasize their appearance, and males to be doers and initiators....Men get accused all the time of being sleazy or womanizing - Well that's just the consequential flip side of the mainstream socialization of females to be passive and vain.
 
Messages
7,649
Points
29
JusticeZero said:
Going to have to agree there. I don't do things as a rule that would make me be sleazy, womanizing, and sexist.. but as a result, I don't get a date unless SHE asks ME out. And that simply does not happen. But ask women about their thoughts on asking a man out and you get a chorus of 'Oh, I couldn't do that!' ..well, you get what you reward, and if you make only sleaze succeed, you will see a lot of sleaze. It's not much different than mandating large setbacks and expansive minimum lot sizes in a place, and zoning the place single-family, then being angry about it springing up in a low density high income subdivision.
[ot]
Take my word for it: women who are very forward mostly run into two situations: major rejection from guys who assume you are a desperate wh*re and want no part of it :-c and unwanted attention from guys who assume you are a desperate wh*re and like it. :-{

Ugh. :-([/ot]
 

dobopoq

Cyburbian
Messages
1,002
Points
21
[Not really off-topic because JNL was basically complaining about a guy who was flirting with her, IMO.]

Michele Zone said:
Take my word for it: women who are very forward mostly run into two situations: major rejection from guys who assume you are a desperate wh*re and want no part of it :-c and unwanted attention from guys who assume you are a desperate wh*re and like it. :-{

Ugh. :-(
MZ: So you don't disagree then, that women are still mostly passive when it comes to seeking mates, relying on attracting males to them. Well there's your problem with attracting unwanted attention right there.

You say forward women end up getting rejected by those they seek and then hounded by everyone else. Well maybe if you're dressed real slutty and you touch the guy, other guys will notice this. But if you just walk up to a stranger, dressed in relatively normal clothes, without implying anything sexual in your body language, and ask them out, even if you're rejected, I don't see how other men are going to find out too, let alone think you're a wh*re. It's not like there's some special male broadcasting frequency that alerts men of wh*res in the area.

There's a saying: "Women are like flowers - You pick them."

Yeah, but there's no guarantee they'll let you pick them. And the same goes for women picking men. If men do the majority of initiating, then that implies women are not going after what they want. I am all for encouraging women to pick up some of the slack on initiating.

I think most of the gender imbalance on initiating occurs for three reasons:
1. Women don't have to be aggressive because they put all this high maintenance effort into attracting men to them, (as already mentioned).
2. Women have a shame issue about anatomy having been taught that their vagina is dirty, (probably by their mother).
3. Promiscuity in women has historically been taboo, because it would tend to obfuscate who the real father is should pregnancy occur.

Hooray for contraception, safe/legal abortion, and planned parenthood! :)
These social control controls are obsolete. So Ladies: get some female balls, and go out there and get what you want! ;) I avoid prissy, high maintenance women like the plague. :-c And one more thing ladies: if you want men to like you for your brains, then don't just sit/stand there waiting passively for your looks to attract them - initiate conversation! ;-) :h: :)
 
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Oh, um, oops -- I deleted my original and then this shows up. Can some mod undelete my original (is that possible??). :-$
dobopoq said:
MZ: So you don't disagree then, that women are still mostly passive when it comes to seeking mates, relying on attracting males to them. Well there's your problem with attracting unwanted attention right there.
I have no real clue what other women do. I don't pay that much attention to other women. I used to try to figure out what it is that I do "differently" from other women but I just can't really fathom it. :(
You say forward women end up getting rejected by those they seek and then hounded by everyone else. Well maybe if you're dressed real slutty and you touch the guy, other guys will notice this. But if you just walk up to a stranger, dressed in relatively normal clothes, without implying anything sexual in your body language, and ask them out, even if you're rejected, I don't see how other men are going to find out too, let alone think you're a wh*re. It's not like there's some special male broadcasting frequency that alerts men of wh*res in the area.
You know, I deleted my original because I am not sure I want to have a detailed discussion in public about this topic. I often end up in hot water when I try to give my point of view about my subjective experiences on this topic. Please excuse me for not wanting to give a substantive reply here but I think your assumptions are seriously in error. Sigh.

There's a saying: "Women are like flowers - You pick them."

Yeah, but there's no guarantee they'll let you pick them. And the same goes for women picking men. If men do the majority of initiating, then that implies women are not going after what they want. I am all for encouraging women to pick up some of the slack on initiating.
I consider it to be a SERIOUS issue hampering women's equality: culturally, we have the right to say "yes" or "no", but we are not supposed to ask. In essence, we can agree to service a man or not service him but our needs are not something we are supposed to try to get met. If we do try to get them met, then it is assumed one is a wh*re. Sigh. (I know, I know -- everyone will be ticked by that comment. I am sure there is a more diplomatic way to make that point but I just did a self move and I am exhausted, etc.)
I think most of the gender imbalance on initiating occurs for three reasons:
1. Women don't have to be aggressive because they put all this high maintenance effort into attracting men to them, (as already mentioned).
2. Women have a shame issue about anatomy having been taught that their vagina is dirty, (probably by their mother).
3. Promiscuity in women has historically been taboo, because it would tend to obfuscate who the real father is should pregnancy occur.
I think there is SOME truth to the idea that women are biologically wired differently as well. I could make a good argument that I "think like a man" -- I am good at math, I have a certificate in GIS (a 2/3's male field), etc. Yet, I also have an overdeveloped maternal instinct, sigh. In some ways, I am very typically female. Basically, I am a Freak. Blech. |-)
Hooray for contraception, safe/legal abortion, and planned parenthood! :)
These social control controls are obsolete. So Ladies: get some female balls, and go out there and get what you want! ;) I avoid prissy, high maintenance women like the plague. And one more thing ladies: if you want men to like you for your brains, then don't just sit/stand there waiting for your looks to attract them, initiate conversation! ;-) :h: :)
The short version of my life experience: most men who adore me for my brains rapidly forget I have any very shortly after they discover that I also have a sexuality. I don't even have to sleep with them or anything close to that -- Men who conclude I am an attractive female often get all tongue-tied and sh*t like that and promptly quit having interesting conversations with me. :cool: (My husband did not forget I had a brain and that is a big part of why I married him. Then we got married, he joined the army, and suddenly he assumed that I was supposed to do his laundry and stuff -- I think many of the assumptions men make about what women are "supposed to" do "out of love" equates to slavery. And the same men who assume you are supposed to invest your time and energy in them "out of love" call a woman a "gold-digger" if she thinks he should fork over the money "out of love" -- tsk tsk, I wish you had not replied to my post before I managed to delete it. I am bound to get in hot water over those comments. :-o )

Actually, this probably ought to be split to a new thread. Sorry, people. I really don't intentionally hi-jack threads. Sigh. :-$
 

Jaxspra

Cyburbian
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The short version of my life experience: most men who adore me for my brains rapidly forget I have any very shortly after they discover that I also have a sexuality. I don't even have to sleep with them or anything close to that -- Men who conclude I am an attractive female often get all tongue-tied and sh*t like that and promptly quit having interesting conversations with me. (My husband did not forget I had a brain and that is a big part of why I married him. Then we got married, he joined the army, and suddenly he assumed that I was supposed to do his laundry and stuff -- I think many of the assumptions men make about what women are "supposed to" do "out of love" equates to slavery. And the same men who assume you are supposed to invest your time and energy in them "out of love" call a woman a "gold-digger" if she thinks he should fork over the money "out of love" -- tsk tsk, I wish you had not replied to my post before I managed to delete it. I am bound to get in hot water over those comments. )
Agreed and ditto...my EX-husband fell in love with me because of my independence and brains and left me for the same traits. What was appealing to him, drove him insane; I guess he thought I was going to become some "passive" wife after I said "I do".
 
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Jaxspra said:
Agreed and ditto...my EX-husband fell in love with me because of my independence and brains and left me for the same traits. What was appealing to him, drove him insane; I guess he thought I was going to become some "passive" wife after I said "I do".
There was a time when (I thought) I would have "happily" been his doting wife with no life of my own if he had just appreciated it and not walked on me so much. So when I really think about it, I am thankful that he wasn't "a better husband": A gilded cage is still a cage. I have thought a lot over the years about it and I think that men often don't really think about the consequences of the assumptions they make -- they grew up around such assumptions and those assumptions seem to benefit them so they usually don't have a lot of reason to think very deeply about it. Women are much more likely to think about it but usually then just blame the individual male who happens to be involved with them -- which makes him feel unfairly beat up on and doesn't really get at the root of anything. I don't know what the solution is.

But please note that my original comment was in reply to someone and my basic intent was to suggest that "maybe this is why most women tell you they aren't willing to initiate a relationship" -- it was NOT intended to man-bash or whine about men or anything like that. (And I am not suggesting Jaxspra is doing that either. I am only trying to prevent this from turning ugly.)

PS thanks to the moderating team for undeleting my original post.
 

Journeymouse

Cyburbian
Messages
443
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13
Although I don't have the experience of Jaxpra and MZ as I have never been married, I have found things to be similar. You'll forgive me, I hope, if I get a bit personal here, but the background may help.

Having been interested in the more male dominated subjects at school and university, I've usually been friends with men more often than women. I still find it easier to make casual friendships with men rather than women, although my best friends are always women, these days. This is because I have learnt the following. There are a few men (or should I say boys, because it is quite a childish assumption) who assume that smiling and enjoying myself in their presence means I'm ready to lie down and spread my legs. It is very hard to tell this minority from the right type of man. Thankfully, most of them have been prepared to take "no" for an answer, although I have had to enforce this with a public verbal attack on more than one occasion and with a public physical defence on one (don't ask). The main issue arises between them and I because I don't find that many men attractive! I can enjoy spending time with men, but don't necessarily want to make time with them. I can count the number of men I've been out with on two hands and the men I've slept with on one. Most of my girl friends tease me for never going "out on the pull".

That said, when I do find someone I find interesting, I'm very "aggressive" about taking it further. I have severely shocked a girl friend of mine by letting a man we only met for the first time a week beforehand answer the door to her first thing in a morning. When she expressed surprise I had to point out that I had actually been quite slow off the mark, it's just that she hadn't known me for long enough to have seen me go after my previous boyfriend (we're talking years, here). For those who are interested, the 'new' boyfriend lasted 5 months and we split up because I was supposed to sacrifice my bachelor's degree to play house while he worked, as he graduated that year. Of course, I'd have been expected to get some kind of job as well, to contribute. His reasoning? He didn't want to leave me behind when he moved to his job in Manchester (all of an hour away on the train). My response? Not repeatable

And I do take "No" for an answer, and I have to admit to hearing about half the time. ;)
 
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